Iron Advocate

Unlock the inner game of advocacy, the winning mindset, psychology and personal habits of highly successful attorneys. We are warriors. Litigation is a form of combat and hardship always accompanies battle. Fear. Dread. Vulnerability. Iron Advocates embrace those feelings while living an examined professional and personal life. For 26 years, Jeff Riebel and Bob Levant have engaged in a daily conversation about life in and out of the law. Each is a seasoned litigator. Bob has successfully defended cases including capital murder and secured numerous multimillion dollar verdicts and settlements in civil rights cases. Jeff typically represents clients in which marital estates worth tens of millions and sometimes billions of dollars are in dispute. His clients include CEOs, venture capitalists and other highly successful and well-known Californians. Join Jeff, Bob and their guests as they discuss how to kill it in the practice of law without it killing you.

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Iron Advocate

Ep 11 - Bree Buchanan

June 28, 2020 • Bree Buchanan • Season 1 • Episode 11

Bree Buchanan is the Co-Chair and Founder of the National Task Force on Lawyer Well-Being. In 2017, the American Bar Association sanctioned Task Force published the most comprehensive report to date detailing the critical need for the legal profession to address alarming rates of addiction, depression and suicide amongst its members. The Report paints a worrisome picture while also offering thoughtful insights into what can be done to make systemic change to the culture within the legal profession.

Bree shares her insights gained as the Director of the Texas Lawyers Assistance Program as well as her vast knowledge acquired as the Task Force Report was compiled. Bree also takes us on her own journey through depression, anxiety and addiction. During the conversation, we grapple with the complex question of why it is that lawyers suffer at such dramatic rates, and engage in rich back and forth searching for answers. Some very healthy tips and suggestions emerge.

Brew Buchanan is a must listen within every law firm and legal organization as well as by anyone with a growth mindset. Enjoy this episode of Iron Advocate as we continue to explore how lawyers can kill it on the practice of law without it killing us.

The Task Force Report can be found at LawyerWellBeing.net. Bree Buchanan can be reached at Bree1964@att.net or by visiting PRKrill.com.

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Bree Buchanan is the Co chair and founder of the

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National Task Force on lawyer well being.

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In 2017, the American Bar Association sanctioned task force published

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the most comprehensive report to date,

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detailing the critical need for the legal profession to address

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alarming rates of addiction,

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depression and suicide amongst its members.

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The report paints a worrisome picture while also offering thoughtful

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insights into what can be done to make systemic change

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to the culture within the legal profession.

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Bri shares her insights gained as the director of the

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Texas lawyers assistance program,

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as well as her vast knowledge acquired as the task

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force report was compiled.

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Bree also takes us on her own journey through depression,

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anxiety and addiction. During the conversation,

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we grapple with the complex question of why it is

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that lawyers suffer at such dramatic rates and engage in

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rich back and forth searching for answers.

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Some very healthy tips and suggestions emerged.

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Bree Buchanan is a must listen within every law firm

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and legal organization,

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as well as by anyone with a growth mindset.

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Enjoy this episode of iron advocate as we continue to

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explore how lawyers can kill it in the practice of

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law without it killing us.

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You're listening to iron advocate,

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the podcast dedicated to you,

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the trial attorney. Visionary Warrior Unfiltered no holds barred.

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Iron advocate. Join Bob live at Jeffrey Bowl and today's

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top legal minds on a journey to discover how to

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kill it in the law without it killing you.

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Because being the best advocate for others begins with being

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the best advocate for yourself.

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Bree, what is the current state of Wellness in the

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law?

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I would say it's pretty dismal.

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And the and I think it's been pretty dismal for

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quite awhile.

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One thing that is different about most recent times is

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that we actually have some data that tells us what's

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going on,

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and so in 2016 we had these two studies.

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It just happened to be that way.

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One was lawyers across the country and other law students

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across the country and without getting into much numbers.

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Basically what we learned is that lawyers law students both

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experience mental health problems,

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particularly depression and anxiety, and problematic drinking in particular.

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At a disproportionate rate to the rest of the population

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and and those of us,

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I was in the lawyers assistance program world for a

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good amount of time,

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and we could tell you that anecdotally,

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from the calls that we would get coming through.

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But we finally now have the numbers to demonstrate that

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it is a really significant measurable problem in the legal

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profession.

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So breathe the report that you Co authored,

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which was, uh, the ABA sanctioned report on lawyer Wellness

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in the in 2017.

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The report says I'm reading a short quote from it

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for too long.

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The legal profession has turned a blind eye to widespread

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health problems.

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Do you believe that there is widespread recognition of that

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Bondi?

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I think there's increasing recognition,

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and we've seen that over the past few years,

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so that report, which was originally written and published by

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the National Task Force on lawyer,

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well being one of the Co chairs of that.

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And that was then, once we published in 2017,

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it was endorsed by both the ABA and the conference

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of Chief Justices,

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and so that that would happen,

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right at the very beginning after we published it in.

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That kicked up the I guess,

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the profile of the report in the profile of these

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issues,

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we could've went to hyperspace really,

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really quickly on this topic,

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there wasn't a lot of discussion about it.

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And then, within a matter of about a year to

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two years We have now have a good example of

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this is the number of states that have adopted their

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own lawyer well being task forces or commissions or some

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major project that's going on right now.

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There's about 30 two states doing that.

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An prior to that report being published in 2017,

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there maybe 3 or 4 states that may be head

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of State Bar Lawyer Well-being Committee,

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so that's indicative of how this is moving forward.

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And another measurement, also the ABA after they gave thumbs

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up to that report.

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They, the president of the ABA,

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created a a task force till work on these issues

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for major legal employers.

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And there is a pledge campaign that was launched an

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is still ongoing and we have about 190 currently of

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the biggest law firms in the world and some law

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schools and. State agencies etc who have signed this Seven

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point pledge,

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saying that they're gonna make the well being of their

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employees a top priority.

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So it's gaining traction in quickly.

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Thankfully, you at the head of the Texas lawyers assistance

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program,

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is that right? That's right,

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yeah, and you could tell folks out there.

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What did that mean? What was were you in charge

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of?

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Sure, so this lawyers assistance program,

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which actually part of the State Bar of Texas.

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And what we did is we are primary function was

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to take calls from lawyers,

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law students an and judges who were concerned about their

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own mental health.

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Maybe because of depression or anxiety or burnout,

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compassion, fatigue, or they were concerned about how much they

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were drinking or using drugs typically.

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But 90% of it was alcohol.

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And then we also had people that were quite frankly

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concerned about another member of the profession.

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They wanted us to reach out and try to offer

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some support to them,

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so it was a day today.

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It could be pretty boring and sometimes it could be

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just with your hair on fire because you never know

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when that phone rings.

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What's going to be on the other end,

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and sometimes it's talking somebody down from a ledge quite

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literally.

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So yeah, it was it.

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Was it eventful. Eight years.

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And how many lawyers do you think you work with

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in that period of time?

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Who are in real trouble?

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Yeah, I would say me personally.

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7 or 800 over the course of that time,

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our job was to listen to them really trying to

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see what's going on in triage this situation and move

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them onto the next step of getting professional resources.

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Can you deconstruct? A lawyer whose practice becomes impaired by

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depression or substance abuse.

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Can you give us a sense of that way?

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And we're trying to get at is the the common

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themes and characteristics that run 2 lawyers who are suffering

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with depression and suffering with substance abuse,

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and I know that's a very broad question and there's

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a lot of different profiles,

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but the commonality's you see?

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Sure, I can tell you what I saw from the

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phone calls that I got,

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and then what the studies have shown which adds.

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An additional layer so that people that would actually pick

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up the phone and call the lawyers assistance program with

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some regularity tended to be male lawyers in their late

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40s, fifties or early 60s.

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So in that period, when typically there would be at

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the height of their karere,

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we got a lot of calls from lawyers who were

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sole practitioners,

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and if they are in a very small firm.

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Um people who were in programs where there was not

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a lot of support that they had all the pressures

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of of making sure that you know the paychecks for

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their staff working. They could cash them and along with

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everything else of carrying a load of litigation in cases

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forward.

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So that's that's what we saw.

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The isolation you guys look for.

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Key factors, people that don't have a lot of support

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around them into an isolated.

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And again, may Older Male lawyers,

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that's and that's that's who called.

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So then when we have this very significant 13,000 lawyers

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across the state,

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the country. The study that was conducted and published in

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2016,

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it really revealed a much better picture of the suffering

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of the legal profession and what we saw in that

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are the people with the highest rate of problematic drinking

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or depression or anxiety were actually younger lawyers and the

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younger lawyers that are in big firms,

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and so they're not calling.

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At least they're not calling the lawyers assistance programs,

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but when you look at across the board,

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those are the ones that are experiencing the greatest level

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of stress.

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So these are people that don't have a lot of

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control over their schedule.

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Their new to the practice.

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Everything is the learning curve is steep and straight up.

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They don't control their schedule.

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They often don't have a sense of the full project

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that they're working on,

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so that that they're just sort of.

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Left to work on something that seemed can seem relatively

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meaningless,

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and we know that meaning is a big important piece

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of all of this.

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To be able to stay engaged and avoid burnout.

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And then all there's everything that goes along with now

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the graduates in the rate of debt that they're bringing

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with him into the practice of law.

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So those are some of the factors that go into

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making our young lawyers really.

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Really having a lot of problems or something we should

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be concerned about.

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Wow, um. Free if I can break down what I

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think I heard is,

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the report recognizes that I think all of us in

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the profession that are paying attention recognized that isolation is

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a significant issue for lawyers.

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Um? But when I heard you saying is on the

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one hand,

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young lawyers feel isolated because they get in jobs that

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they feel out of control.

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They don't really know what they're doing.

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They may be questioning their own worth,

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and they're afraid to come forward because they're trying to

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build a career in her profile.

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And then as you move up,

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the spectrum, age and experience wise,

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you get to the lawyers that are isolated because they've

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taken so much on financially professionally supervisory and so everyone.

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Ends up isolated and then you have.

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You know, the constant worries of you know of you

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know,

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losing clients turning on you,

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being sued. You know disciplinary issues,

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etc. So isolation is this huge theme,

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uhm? What have you seen?

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That we can do to help lawyers to move toward

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the vulnerability and the acknowledgment of what we're talking about,

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right? Can you try to try to drill down and

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help us there?

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I know that's big. Vulnerability that was real cute for

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me because one of the things I also wanted to

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talk about with you guys is the flip side of

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that, the not being. Willing to be vulnerable in a

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common theme in the thing that sets us up as

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lawyers?

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Is this warrior mentality. You know,

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we're taught from the beginning.

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When were in law school.

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We've got to suit up on our with our armor

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and going there on behalf of our our clients and

250
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we cannot ever be perceived as weak.

251
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An or feel that we cannot.

252
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If there's a chink in the armor than the opponent

253
00:12:27,856 --> 00:12:30,433
is going to take advantage of that,

254
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and that creates a situation where.

255
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We cannot be vulnerable when we need to be even

256
00:12:36,933 --> 00:12:38,878
when our life depends on it.

257
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And I'm thinking about somebody who is really depressed or

258
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really having trouble coping at at work.

259
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And if you think right now,

260
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good Lord with a pandemic and everything that's going on

261
00:12:51,587 --> 00:12:54,833
and how many people must be having all of these

262
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just difficult coat to cope.

263
00:12:56,836 --> 00:13:00,332
But people are still afraid to ask for help because

264
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that shows that you are weak and we don't ask

265
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for help.

266
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And we tend to at least not until the last

267
00:13:07,403 --> 00:13:08,305
year or two,

268
00:13:08,305 --> 00:13:10,816
and we don't talk about this now.

269
00:13:10,816 --> 00:13:14,905
It's so incredibly prevalent you've got one out of five

270
00:13:14,979 --> 00:13:19,737
lawyers have experienced problematic drinking one out of four is

271
00:13:19,812 --> 00:13:21,596
experiencing depression,

272
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but we're all siloed in a whole offices and we

273
00:13:25,091 --> 00:13:28,364
don't talk to each other so we don't make it

274
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OK to admit to ourselves or anyone else that were

275
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struggling or having these problems.

276
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And and that inability to be vulnerable enough to say

277
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I need help is killing us.

278
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And I see that over and over again.

279
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And when I say I see that.

280
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I mean, I'm talking about my years at the lawyers

281
00:13:50,025 --> 00:13:51,128
assistance program.

282
00:13:51,128 --> 00:13:54,458
When I was dealing directly with lawyers we had so

283
00:13:54,524 --> 00:13:55,590
I unfortunately.

284
00:13:55,590 --> 00:13:58,908
Um was Privy to the stories of way too many

285
00:13:58,985 --> 00:14:00,297
lawyers in Texas,

286
00:14:00,297 --> 00:14:04,376
which is where I worked an across the country who

287
00:14:04,459 --> 00:14:06,540
took his or her own life.

288
00:14:06,540 --> 00:14:11,233
Because of the variety of the factors that were talking

289
00:14:11,319 --> 00:14:15,244
about and at at its most basic and core level,

290
00:14:15,244 --> 00:14:18,951
that's one of the things that I work two to

291
00:14:19,037 --> 00:14:19,554
avoid.

292
00:14:19,554 --> 00:14:21,360
So free.

293
00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:23,886
Jeff and I so Jeff and I talk a lot

294
00:14:23,958 --> 00:14:27,782
both on and off the podcast that you were discussing.

295
00:14:27,782 --> 00:14:31,184
You know the when you get to the crisis brought

296
00:14:31,257 --> 00:14:32,777
to you tored the end.

297
00:14:32,777 --> 00:14:34,061
How do we in law,

298
00:14:34,061 --> 00:14:40,257
schools, firms, legal organizations? Educate lawyers that getting in touch

299
00:14:40,341 --> 00:14:44,695
with your vulnerability in your fear will make you a

300
00:14:44,778 --> 00:14:46,118
better advocate.

301
00:14:46,118 --> 00:14:50,789
A better lawyer, more emotionally in touch with yourself,

302
00:14:50,789 --> 00:14:52,964
your cause in your client,

303
00:14:52,964 --> 00:14:56,830
and that's me. Speaking from my own experience,

304
00:14:56,830 --> 00:14:59,890
and it took a long time to figure out.

305
00:14:59,890 --> 00:15:05,430
What can we do? Culturale too?

306
00:15:05,430 --> 00:15:08,101
Embrace that broader message that hey look.

307
00:15:08,101 --> 00:15:10,700
If you do this, it will help you with your

308
00:15:10,762 --> 00:15:11,319
Wellness.

309
00:15:11,319 --> 00:15:13,808
But it's gonna make you a better lawyer.

310
00:15:13,808 --> 00:15:16,904
Yeah, and I think when you're saying those things,

311
00:15:16,904 --> 00:15:20,277
I'm thinking about the idea of bringing your whole self

312
00:15:20,339 --> 00:15:22,792
to work and being your full human being.

313
00:15:22,792 --> 00:15:24,856
And when you can experience that,

314
00:15:24,856 --> 00:15:28,195
you're going to be able to identify with your clients,

315
00:15:28,195 --> 00:15:32,197
identify with your witnesses, understand where they may be coming

316
00:15:32,258 --> 00:15:32,566
from,

317
00:15:32,566 --> 00:15:34,934
why they're doing, what they're doing,

318
00:15:34,934 --> 00:15:36,850
and how they may react.

319
00:15:36,850 --> 00:15:40,562
Um, an and it definitely will make you a better

320
00:15:40,641 --> 00:15:44,195
lawyer in just in your skills in regards to a

321
00:15:44,274 --> 00:15:46,090
deposition or in trial,

322
00:15:46,090 --> 00:15:49,987
etc. Anan, I do have experience in that we didn't

323
00:15:50,067 --> 00:15:51,180
talk about it,

324
00:15:51,180 --> 00:15:54,653
but I spent the first 10 years of working at

325
00:15:54,732 --> 00:15:59,468
a legal aid program in Central Texas representing victims of

326
00:15:59,547 --> 00:16:00,968
domestic violence.

327
00:16:00,968 --> 00:16:04,477
And so I did the the family law docket there

328
00:16:04,557 --> 00:16:05,275
and yeah,

329
00:16:05,275 --> 00:16:07,160
so.

330
00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,475
So you have your own story of and each of

331
00:16:10,555 --> 00:16:10,798
us.

332
00:16:10,798 --> 00:16:13,092
Do you know on this podcast,

333
00:16:13,092 --> 00:16:16,462
story of suffering and part of a Bob and I

334
00:16:16,542 --> 00:16:18,628
did to start this podcast,

335
00:16:18,628 --> 00:16:22,927
we spoke with a therapist name will meyerhoffer and we

336
00:16:23,007 --> 00:16:26,748
talked about the fact that each of us have been

337
00:16:26,828 --> 00:16:30,649
in therapy and the feeling of the objects in the

338
00:16:30,649 --> 00:16:35,236
anxiety, the fear, the story of catastrophes it's going to

339
00:16:35,315 --> 00:16:37,530
before you and I think that.

340
00:16:37,530 --> 00:16:40,353
The Bob and I are we the warrior culture I

341
00:16:40,420 --> 00:16:41,630
made note of this.

342
00:16:41,630 --> 00:16:43,945
We talk about this in our podcast.

343
00:16:43,945 --> 00:16:46,843
We even some of the pictures we have in our

344
00:16:46,911 --> 00:16:47,450
website.

345
00:16:47,450 --> 00:16:49,964
People have told us we look too hard.

346
00:16:49,964 --> 00:16:54,452
You guys aren't inviting vulnerability and it's it's an interesting

347
00:16:54,519 --> 00:16:55,122
question,

348
00:16:55,122 --> 00:16:57,569
right? It's sort of like the matrix.

349
00:16:57,569 --> 00:16:59,421
If you've seen those films,

350
00:16:59,421 --> 00:17:01,868
it's we are in the legal profession,

351
00:17:01,868 --> 00:17:04,886
are involved in this matrix and we have to we

352
00:17:04,953 --> 00:17:06,630
portray how tough we are.

353
00:17:06,630 --> 00:17:08,680
We are tough but the same time.

354
00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:12,657
I'll speak for myself. I've suffered greatly at times with

355
00:17:12,725 --> 00:17:14,165
my own feeling of of,

356
00:17:14,165 --> 00:17:16,128
um, concern. Worry at times.

357
00:17:16,128 --> 00:17:19,023
am I enough to be able to finish the early

358
00:17:19,092 --> 00:17:19,988
in my career,

359
00:17:19,988 --> 00:17:23,964
particularly in the own? Your own self doubts dealing with

360
00:17:24,032 --> 00:17:25,540
your own inner critic?

361
00:17:25,540 --> 00:17:28,451
And because the margin for error is small,

362
00:17:28,451 --> 00:17:31,024
you're worried about you want to win.

363
00:17:31,024 --> 00:17:34,910
You said the check in the arm with your opponents.

364
00:17:34,910 --> 00:17:37,427
Your own clients don't want to see a chink in

365
00:17:37,482 --> 00:17:38,545
the armor you know.

366
00:17:38,545 --> 00:17:40,307
Can you imagine going to trial,

367
00:17:40,307 --> 00:17:42,620
saying, I'm feeling very vulnerable today?

368
00:17:42,620 --> 00:17:44,464
I hope it's gonna workout.

369
00:17:44,464 --> 00:17:48,065
I mean people don't generally want to hear that from

370
00:17:48,134 --> 00:17:49,381
the trial lawyers,

371
00:17:49,381 --> 00:17:51,908
but I want to hear about your story.

372
00:17:51,908 --> 00:17:55,231
Tell us your story. I know you've been very open

373
00:17:55,301 --> 00:17:56,893
about your in recovery.

374
00:17:56,893 --> 00:17:59,540
How did you find your way here?

375
00:17:59,540 --> 00:18:03,960
Oh my gosh, what a long and somewhat sordid tale.

376
00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:08,109
So no us in some ways,

377
00:18:08,109 --> 00:18:10,932
uhm. This my dad would say it can.

378
00:18:10,932 --> 00:18:12,842
It came about all of this honestly.

379
00:18:12,842 --> 00:18:18,974
I mean I. Have a genetic predisposition towards abusing alcohol.

380
00:18:18,974 --> 00:18:24,436
I entered a profession that really really leans on alcohol

381
00:18:24,530 --> 00:18:29,145
as a means to celebrate as it means to compensate

382
00:18:29,239 --> 00:18:32,629
as a means to to deal with your day.

383
00:18:32,629 --> 00:18:37,558
Get through your day, celebrate your day is it's the

384
00:18:37,653 --> 00:18:39,738
go to stress reliever.

385
00:18:39,738 --> 00:18:44,040
Self medicate are so when I got to law school.

386
00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:47,854
I felt entirely unprepared. I had the whole impostor syndrome

387
00:18:47,917 --> 00:18:49,918
going big time like probably 90%

388
00:18:49,918 --> 00:18:53,383
of the students there, but nobody again talks about it.

389
00:18:53,383 --> 00:18:56,415
I'd say more than 90 and sorry to interrupt you.

390
00:18:56,415 --> 00:18:59,014
I think one thing that I read the report,

391
00:18:59,014 --> 00:19:02,391
I think the legal profession has more anxiety and more

392
00:19:02,453 --> 00:19:04,892
depression than is even revealed there.

393
00:19:04,892 --> 00:19:06,872
Which was, I think is shocking.

394
00:19:06,872 --> 00:19:09,471
But I can tell you that the folks I know,

395
00:19:09,471 --> 00:19:11,637
the ones that are honest about it,

396
00:19:11,637 --> 00:19:14,050
every one of 'em has it to some degree.

397
00:19:14,050 --> 00:19:16,312
Right, yeah I I after that.

398
00:19:16,312 --> 00:19:20,350
Yeah, absolutely. So it's it's some of it's like,

399
00:19:20,350 --> 00:19:24,743
OK, we're you're gonna go into this profession and you

400
00:19:24,825 --> 00:19:28,730
started in law school and it is going to produce

401
00:19:28,811 --> 00:19:31,659
in you very uncomfortable feelings.

402
00:19:31,659 --> 00:19:36,425
Anxiety is unpleasant to feel the physical manifestations,

403
00:19:36,425 --> 00:19:40,464
the mental manifestations are very uncomfortable.

404
00:19:40,464 --> 00:19:43,048
The same thing with depression,

405
00:19:43,048 --> 00:19:46,366
the same thing. With burnout or extreme fatigue,

406
00:19:46,366 --> 00:19:47,769
and So what do we do?

407
00:19:47,769 --> 00:19:50,513
Is human beings we don't want to feel bad?

408
00:19:50,513 --> 00:19:52,300
We don't want to feel pain,

409
00:19:52,300 --> 00:19:54,469
and so our goto is typically too.

410
00:19:54,469 --> 00:19:57,596
You know, the it's a bit majority of the saying.

411
00:19:57,596 --> 00:20:01,680
But to self medicate to make ourselves feel better.

412
00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,187
And so that can be in a variety of ways.

413
00:20:04,187 --> 00:20:06,678
When I was going out and I still talk to

414
00:20:06,740 --> 00:20:07,550
law students,

415
00:20:07,550 --> 00:20:10,150
but we had ten law schools in Texas and so

416
00:20:10,212 --> 00:20:12,503
went out and spoke to them regularly.

417
00:20:12,503 --> 00:20:14,520
and I talked to them about that.

418
00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,300
You know, you've got to develop a one of your

419
00:20:17,361 --> 00:20:20,635
core competencies and that you need to be developing.

420
00:20:20,635 --> 00:20:23,998
Law school is not just trial skills and contracts etc.

421
00:20:23,998 --> 00:20:26,834
It is a means of self care and how you're

422
00:20:26,903 --> 00:20:30,293
going to take care of yourself over the long term

423
00:20:30,362 --> 00:20:31,400
of your career.

424
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,770
And to sort of carry that that forward.

425
00:20:34,770 --> 00:20:37,550
I mean I didn't get that message.

426
00:20:37,550 --> 00:20:42,218
And I don't. I don't think any of this day

427
00:20:42,329 --> 00:20:44,330
I shouldn't drink.

428
00:20:44,330 --> 00:20:46,461
If I if I can just say I will circle

429
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:47,290
back to this.

430
00:20:47,290 --> 00:20:50,756
Yeah, law schools aren't delivering that message right on a

431
00:20:50,815 --> 00:20:52,166
regular everyday basis.

432
00:20:52,166 --> 00:20:54,603
You went there and spoke to law students.

433
00:20:54,603 --> 00:20:56,809
You know, as they had a lap in Texas.

434
00:20:56,809 --> 00:20:59,073
But and I don't want to interrupt you.

435
00:20:59,073 --> 00:21:01,943
Keep telling your story. But part of this is that

436
00:21:02,002 --> 00:21:05,399
the law schools aren't sending that message appropriately.

437
00:21:05,399 --> 00:21:07,663
They have it until just very recently.

438
00:21:07,663 --> 00:21:10,719
And there's more and more law schools that are doing

439
00:21:10,778 --> 00:21:12,306
that are getting on board.

440
00:21:12,306 --> 00:21:14,860
But that's a really very recent development.

441
00:21:14,860 --> 00:21:17,861
Um, and it still would not at all be surprising

442
00:21:17,924 --> 00:21:20,989
to me today to go three years through law school

443
00:21:21,053 --> 00:21:24,564
and never hear any of these issues are concerns raised.

444
00:21:24,564 --> 00:21:26,911
I mean, it's very, very very doable.

445
00:21:26,911 --> 00:21:29,321
Or maybe yeah. Or maybe you heard it,

446
00:21:29,321 --> 00:21:32,809
the lab director or somebody came to your orientation.

447
00:21:32,809 --> 00:21:35,976
You know your first week of Law School and that's

448
00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:36,234
it.

449
00:21:36,234 --> 00:21:39,832
Of course, you're not going to remember that when you're

450
00:21:39,896 --> 00:21:41,245
when you're a lawyer,

451
00:21:41,245 --> 00:21:43,275
so you don't believe it either.

452
00:21:43,275 --> 00:21:46,509
If they would have told you would make that right,

453
00:21:46,509 --> 00:21:49,562
go on. Let's go right exactly.

454
00:21:49,562 --> 00:21:55,340
Yeah, I don't have time I gotta study so right.

455
00:21:55,340 --> 00:21:58,505
So I had. I ended up with a full blown

456
00:21:58,588 --> 00:21:59,088
panic,

457
00:21:59,088 --> 00:22:02,629
a disorder at the when I got my grades with

458
00:22:02,711 --> 00:22:06,993
into the first semester of my first year law school.

459
00:22:06,993 --> 00:22:10,741
And you know that is just a horrible feeling.

460
00:22:10,741 --> 00:22:15,174
So I started drinking more to cope with those feelings

461
00:22:15,256 --> 00:22:19,443
and got into got out and started like dropped right

462
00:22:19,525 --> 00:22:21,742
in the grease at legal aid.

463
00:22:21,742 --> 00:22:25,572
You know in court doing trial my second week is

464
00:22:25,653 --> 00:22:27,690
a lawyer scared to death.

465
00:22:27,690 --> 00:22:30,000
And was scared to death for the first two years.

466
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,154
Man. Every time the phone Rang I just knew as

467
00:22:32,202 --> 00:22:33,159
an opposing counsel,

468
00:22:33,159 --> 00:22:35,306
calling to to pick on me because that was the

469
00:22:35,354 --> 00:22:37,119
baby lawyer and didn't know anything.

470
00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:39,130
And probably some of them were.

471
00:22:39,130 --> 00:22:42,869
So I what I did to to deal with that

472
00:22:42,973 --> 00:22:47,544
is I drank and over a period of time because

473
00:22:47,648 --> 00:22:50,660
of my genetic predisposition.

474
00:22:50,660 --> 00:22:54,647
And you add enough alcohol over that over a longer

475
00:22:54,726 --> 00:22:58,633
period of time and it starts to create changes in

476
00:22:58,713 --> 00:22:59,590
your brain.

477
00:22:59,590 --> 00:23:05,327
And. Picking out Voila. About 20 years later,

478
00:23:05,327 --> 00:23:10,357
I ended up. Where? Alcoholics tend to end up if

479
00:23:10,464 --> 00:23:13,675
you keep drinking long enough,

480
00:23:13,675 --> 00:23:18,150
and that is where my life was so utterly miserable.

481
00:23:18,150 --> 00:23:20,902
That I didn't know how I would continue with my

482
00:23:20,961 --> 00:23:23,186
life I knew is because of my drinking,

483
00:23:23,186 --> 00:23:26,284
but I didn't know how I would live without the

484
00:23:26,351 --> 00:23:26,890
alcohol.

485
00:23:26,890 --> 00:23:28,028
And so I had a,

486
00:23:28,028 --> 00:23:30,720
you know, when I go out and I tell my

487
00:23:30,793 --> 00:23:31,229
story,

488
00:23:31,229 --> 00:23:32,936
I talk to people about.

489
00:23:32,936 --> 00:23:37,105
I really had two completely different personas and I think

490
00:23:37,177 --> 00:23:39,765
this is really common among lawyers.

491
00:23:39,765 --> 00:23:43,964
Ann, especially women, lawyers. Is that we put this this

492
00:23:44,039 --> 00:23:47,938
front out of being professional and we've got it all

493
00:23:48,013 --> 00:23:51,462
together and we try to look good and act smart

494
00:23:51,462 --> 00:23:55,235
etc. Uhm, I had a lot of great successes.

495
00:23:55,235 --> 00:23:59,837
my CV looks awesome, award winning president of this yadda

496
00:23:59,916 --> 00:24:00,868
yadda yadda.

497
00:24:00,868 --> 00:24:04,340
Well then if you could see what was going on

498
00:24:04,418 --> 00:24:08,758
inside me at that same time the feelings of inferiority

499
00:24:08,837 --> 00:24:10,257
never good enough.

500
00:24:10,257 --> 00:24:13,152
I can you know I need to be perfect.

501
00:24:13,152 --> 00:24:16,507
I need to be perfect in every aspect of my

502
00:24:16,587 --> 00:24:16,986
life.

503
00:24:16,986 --> 00:24:20,040
And so I was constantly failing.

504
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,144
Uhm, and then as the the drinking continued,

505
00:24:23,144 --> 00:24:25,420
my ability to be a good partner.

506
00:24:25,420 --> 00:24:27,973
And you know, just get it out there.

507
00:24:27,973 --> 00:24:30,939
A good parent. I was a pretty good parent,

508
00:24:30,939 --> 00:24:34,280
but I could have been a better parent.

509
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,788
Um? All of that that came together.

510
00:24:37,788 --> 00:24:41,624
You know it's interesting when you're starting to get into

511
00:24:41,690 --> 00:24:45,262
that point where it's starting to take over your life.

512
00:24:45,262 --> 00:24:46,966
You're not blind to that.

513
00:24:46,966 --> 00:24:51,077
That is the most miserable circumstance because you also start

514
00:24:51,144 --> 00:24:52,735
to realize all you know.

515
00:24:52,735 --> 00:24:55,459
We just say for me all of my dreams about

516
00:24:55,525 --> 00:24:57,718
being this phenomenal lawyer etc.

517
00:24:57,718 --> 00:25:01,369
Starts to crumble because I just can't keep it up

518
00:25:01,444 --> 00:25:02,040
anymore.

519
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:07,289
I am no longer physically and mentally psychologically able to

520
00:25:07,374 --> 00:25:11,099
function at the level that I needed to to be

521
00:25:11,184 --> 00:25:12,200
the perfect.

522
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:17,724
Amazing what legal warrior that I wanted to be and

523
00:25:17,835 --> 00:25:22,365
So what it came down to and this again is

524
00:25:22,475 --> 00:25:23,580
such a uh,

525
00:25:23,580 --> 00:25:27,023
try kind of story. End up leaving the law is

526
00:25:27,101 --> 00:25:29,762
executive director of a nonprofit.

527
00:25:29,762 --> 00:25:33,166
You start to see that shifting jobs as things are

528
00:25:33,236 --> 00:25:36,779
not really working out and then had quite frankly a

529
00:25:36,848 --> 00:25:41,225
couple of public drunken incidents as the executive director of

530
00:25:41,225 --> 00:25:44,322
this non profit at a ended up being asked to

531
00:25:44,393 --> 00:25:44,815
leave.

532
00:25:44,815 --> 00:25:47,370
And by that time I lost my marriage.

533
00:25:47,370 --> 00:25:49,994
I and as with all good lawyers right?

534
00:25:49,994 --> 00:25:52,342
That didn't? That didn't stop me.

535
00:25:52,342 --> 00:25:56,140
It's when it affected mycareer that it finally is like.

536
00:25:56,140 --> 00:25:58,526
OK enough, I've got to get help.

537
00:25:58,526 --> 00:26:02,150
I can't live this way anymore and so that was

538
00:26:02,231 --> 00:26:03,600
10 1/2 years ago.

539
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,909
Um Ann, I just threw myself into recovery 'cause I

540
00:26:07,995 --> 00:26:11,700
knew my life basically as I wanted to live.

541
00:26:11,700 --> 00:26:14,908
It was at stake. So and then I had to

542
00:26:14,995 --> 00:26:16,816
treat the Depression.

543
00:26:16,816 --> 00:26:20,779
I had to treat the underlying anxiety I had to

544
00:26:20,865 --> 00:26:25,086
get my butt in the chair in the therapist office.

545
00:26:25,086 --> 00:26:27,217
I learn how to meditate.

546
00:26:27,217 --> 00:26:30,031
I went back to exercising again.

547
00:26:30,031 --> 00:26:33,442
I got in the the 12 step support rooms,

548
00:26:33,442 --> 00:26:36,388
an work that. Path. Uhm,

549
00:26:36,388 --> 00:26:40,626
I felt like I was drowning or dying until it

550
00:26:40,722 --> 00:26:45,249
was like whatever life raft I could find I grab

551
00:26:45,345 --> 00:26:49,487
on to like I was a drowning person 'cause I

552
00:26:49,487 --> 00:26:54,450
really was and so pulling together that full.

553
00:26:54,450 --> 00:26:58,530
Spectrum of supports for myself is what helped me get

554
00:26:58,607 --> 00:26:59,223
through,

555
00:26:59,223 --> 00:27:01,968
but I was out of work for a year and

556
00:27:02,045 --> 00:27:06,087
trying to just recover myself was blessed to get that

557
00:27:06,163 --> 00:27:10,510
job with the lawyers assistance program and Dan worked up

558
00:27:10,510 --> 00:27:13,150
my way back up from there.

559
00:27:13,150 --> 00:27:15,877
Uh, so anan. This is a real common thing with

560
00:27:15,938 --> 00:27:17,635
lawyers assistance programs.

561
00:27:17,635 --> 00:27:21,163
They want somebody who's on the phone answering the phone.

562
00:27:21,163 --> 00:27:23,974
That's been exactly where the caller has been,

563
00:27:23,974 --> 00:27:27,164
and to be able to have that understanding and develop

564
00:27:27,225 --> 00:27:30,415
that quick report that you've got to have when you're

565
00:27:30,475 --> 00:27:33,124
trying to do that type of work on the phone.

566
00:27:33,124 --> 00:27:35,934
So let me ask you a question about about that.

567
00:27:35,934 --> 00:27:38,895
If you look back at the different stages you just

568
00:27:38,955 --> 00:27:41,855
talked about in the first year of the legal aid,

569
00:27:41,855 --> 00:27:44,665
two years being thrown in Bob and I were public

570
00:27:44,725 --> 00:27:46,280
defenders in Philadelphia.

571
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,313
And we had that same experience.

572
00:27:48,313 --> 00:27:51,529
I mean, I went through a giant bottle of aspirin

573
00:27:51,596 --> 00:27:54,610
in about 9 months and I had headaches all the

574
00:27:54,677 --> 00:27:56,620
time when I was stressed out.

575
00:27:56,620 --> 00:28:00,810
If the if EU.

576
00:28:00,810 --> 00:28:03,885
If the brio of of that legal aid job was

577
00:28:03,961 --> 00:28:05,960
listening to this podcast.

578
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,870
What would have helped her?

579
00:28:08,870 --> 00:28:13,274
To hear Oh man. There is such a good question

580
00:28:13,372 --> 00:28:17,188
and I thought about variations of that.

581
00:28:17,188 --> 00:28:19,623
What could have anybody have said,

582
00:28:19,623 --> 00:28:22,110
including as my future self?

583
00:28:22,110 --> 00:28:26,502
Who could time travel could say to me that would

584
00:28:26,593 --> 00:28:28,240
make a difference.

585
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,840
Um? And.

586
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,930
I don't know what could have gotten gotten me off

587
00:28:36,013 --> 00:28:40,938
the track in regards to drinking and using misusing alcohol

588
00:28:41,021 --> 00:28:42,440
to self medicate.

589
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:46,414
I think really, uh, talking to myself and I talked

590
00:28:46,494 --> 00:28:47,050
when I,

591
00:28:47,050 --> 00:28:50,254
specially when I talked to law students,

592
00:28:50,254 --> 00:28:52,598
young lawyers, Ann, deep way,

593
00:28:52,598 --> 00:28:56,114
I really kind of him talking back to myself.

594
00:28:56,114 --> 00:28:58,380
Kind of this thing that you.

595
00:28:58,380 --> 00:29:01,690
This thing that you set up Jeff.

596
00:29:01,690 --> 00:29:05,557
Um, and thinking about what might make a difference and

597
00:29:05,628 --> 00:29:08,862
talking to them about you've got to make this.

598
00:29:08,862 --> 00:29:11,995
It's not just about being a great litigator,

599
00:29:11,995 --> 00:29:15,198
Ann, knowing about all the rules of evidence.

600
00:29:15,198 --> 00:29:18,584
It's more than that. You've got to create a path

601
00:29:18,654 --> 00:29:20,559
of taking care of yourself,

602
00:29:20,559 --> 00:29:23,525
or you cannot do this work and it's got to

603
00:29:23,596 --> 00:29:25,503
be willing to ask for help.

604
00:29:25,503 --> 00:29:27,244
and I learned that late,

605
00:29:27,244 --> 00:29:30,377
and then I asked for help and every which way

606
00:29:30,447 --> 00:29:31,700
that I could turn.

607
00:29:31,700 --> 00:29:34,430
But but that's it, I don't.

608
00:29:34,430 --> 00:29:37,809
You know, then you can get into other things that

609
00:29:37,878 --> 00:29:41,395
have proven to affect lawyer well being and that is

610
00:29:41,464 --> 00:29:44,774
being really aware of who you are and what makes

611
00:29:44,774 --> 00:29:49,864
you tick. Anne, how you get satisfaction and value out

612
00:29:49,958 --> 00:29:51,560
of your own life?

613
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:57,020
And if you're somebody who is motivated by intrinsic values.

614
00:29:57,020 --> 00:30:03,020
Of relationship building relationships. Creating a better world.

615
00:30:03,020 --> 00:30:05,220
You know those sort of things.

616
00:30:05,220 --> 00:30:08,560
If you put yourself into a job that is all

617
00:30:08,639 --> 00:30:11,184
about extrinsic values of power,

618
00:30:11,184 --> 00:30:16,324
prestige, money. You're probably not gonna do fair very well.

619
00:30:16,324 --> 00:30:19,210
It's not a good fit and that also.

620
00:30:19,210 --> 00:30:22,600
We have seen it where that really wears people down

621
00:30:22,666 --> 00:30:24,461
and we don't have the data,

622
00:30:24,461 --> 00:30:27,432
but I bet if we could drill down with further

623
00:30:27,498 --> 00:30:31,724
questions all those young lawyers out there that are experienced

624
00:30:31,790 --> 00:30:35,488
at such high rates of substance abuse and depression and

625
00:30:35,488 --> 00:30:38,298
anxiety. I bet for a lot of them that that

626
00:30:38,365 --> 00:30:38,967
is their.

627
00:30:38,967 --> 00:30:43,094
They've gone into the profession they've gotten in a job

628
00:30:43,168 --> 00:30:46,190
that is not a good fit for them and that.

629
00:30:46,190 --> 00:30:50,378
Really just just infects everything that you do in the

630
00:30:50,456 --> 00:30:52,240
way you live your life.

631
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,732
So if I can jump in for a separate,

632
00:30:54,732 --> 00:30:58,459
what's ironic to me about what you said and obviously

633
00:30:58,529 --> 00:30:59,092
this is,

634
00:30:59,092 --> 00:31:03,060
you know me. 26 years into the practice.

635
00:31:03,060 --> 00:31:06,291
What I'm coming to to see is that use the

636
00:31:06,370 --> 00:31:11,649
word relationships you just talked about being your authentic self,

637
00:31:11,649 --> 00:31:14,880
and if you're in a job where you can't be

638
00:31:14,959 --> 00:31:20,317
your authentic self or you're not creating real human relationships,

639
00:31:20,317 --> 00:31:24,455
it's not going to be healthy profession for you yet.

640
00:31:24,455 --> 00:31:28,124
what I want to talk about is those as lawyers

641
00:31:28,206 --> 00:31:31,060
were Warriors were problem solvers.

642
00:31:31,060 --> 00:31:33,788
Connect dots for people we you know,

643
00:31:33,788 --> 00:31:40,917
we analyze situations. Relationships and being your authentic self are

644
00:31:41,019 --> 00:31:45,805
the best tools that lawyer can have to do those

645
00:31:45,907 --> 00:31:46,620
things.

646
00:31:46,620 --> 00:31:51,783
But Young lawyers are not seeing that for the reasons

647
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:53,341
you identified,

648
00:31:53,341 --> 00:31:58,449
right? It's it's? It's this some unhealthy goals that were

649
00:31:58,537 --> 00:31:59,770
pushed toward.

650
00:31:59,770 --> 00:32:04,167
Assuming you sort of agree with that premise that that's

651
00:32:04,245 --> 00:32:07,072
my own personal experience and take,

652
00:32:07,072 --> 00:32:10,745
um, how do we? Open this dialogue up,

653
00:32:10,745 --> 00:32:15,338
you know, to really let young lawyers and all lawyers

654
00:32:15,424 --> 00:32:16,811
understand that.

655
00:32:16,811 --> 00:32:21,240
If they unlock that. A lot of it.

656
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:25,692
Things you're identifying or gonna get addressed and resolved,

657
00:32:25,692 --> 00:32:29,700
and you're going to thrive in the practice.

658
00:32:29,700 --> 00:32:36,496
Yeah, I think that being willing to continue to increase

659
00:32:36,618 --> 00:32:43,414
having conversations within the law schools I see a push

660
00:32:43,535 --> 00:32:47,540
towards greater awareness of the.

661
00:32:47,540 --> 00:32:50,192
Not just pro Bono, but the the type of law

662
00:32:50,255 --> 00:32:50,697
though.

663
00:32:50,697 --> 00:32:54,100
You're supporting the Public Interest.

664
00:32:54,100 --> 00:32:58,770
Uhm, but I don't see.

665
00:32:58,770 --> 00:33:03,910
Very good. Supports education about.

666
00:33:03,910 --> 00:33:08,317
Really good counseling of where you're a good fit within

667
00:33:08,396 --> 00:33:11,859
the law at the law schools and that would be

668
00:33:11,937 --> 00:33:16,187
wonderful to see more of that helping the law students

669
00:33:16,187 --> 00:33:21,210
discern their path forward. What works for him or her.

670
00:33:21,210 --> 00:33:23,094
So Bree, in the report,

671
00:33:23,094 --> 00:33:29,256
actually. You identify that lawyers in private practice become depressed

672
00:33:29,342 --> 00:33:33,621
if greater rates than those that are in the public

673
00:33:33,707 --> 00:33:35,590
or non-profit sectors.

674
00:33:35,590 --> 00:33:40,790
What is your understanding of why that is true?

675
00:33:40,790 --> 00:33:44,298
Yeah. Well, since we're talking on,

676
00:33:44,298 --> 00:33:45,978
it's a great question. Yeah,

677
00:33:45,978 --> 00:33:47,948
now let's let's get it out there.

678
00:33:47,948 --> 00:33:50,160
It's the billable hour, man.

679
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,920
It it it is, that's the.

680
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:58,159
The 800 pound, 8000 pound whatever gorilla in the room,

681
00:33:58,159 --> 00:34:02,791
and as long as we are requiring absurd an obscene

682
00:34:02,886 --> 00:34:07,234
amounts of hours build which which equates to,

683
00:34:07,234 --> 00:34:12,900
you, know, absurd amounts of hours spent at the office.

684
00:34:12,900 --> 00:34:17,768
Um? We're not gonna make a lot of headway in

685
00:34:17,879 --> 00:34:23,854
making the culture of the legal profession one that is

686
00:34:23,965 --> 00:34:26,620
sustainable and livable.

687
00:34:26,620 --> 00:34:29,761
And then I want to throw that word out there.

688
00:34:29,761 --> 00:34:32,244
I have it, yet I've used a lot in my

689
00:34:32,313 --> 00:34:36,726
speaking the sustainability of the legal practice that you know,

690
00:34:36,726 --> 00:34:39,547
you go into this as a law student and you

691
00:34:39,616 --> 00:34:42,299
wanna do this 30 or 40 years and I tell

692
00:34:42,368 --> 00:34:45,808
them you think about how anxious you are right now

693
00:34:45,808 --> 00:34:48,608
in your classes and facing the bar exam.

694
00:34:48,608 --> 00:34:51,460
Now try to feel that way every day for 30

695
00:34:51,529 --> 00:34:52,364
or 40 years.

696
00:34:52,364 --> 00:34:55,800
How are you going to to sustain yourself in that?

697
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,429
But the the culture around the having to bill so

698
00:34:59,504 --> 00:35:03,058
much having to work so much to the detriment of

699
00:35:03,133 --> 00:35:04,343
everything else,

700
00:35:04,343 --> 00:35:08,120
you know it doesn't serve the clients.

701
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:12,973
It really doesn't, and I think that the change will

702
00:35:13,068 --> 00:35:18,111
come around that and we're gonna get some shifting in

703
00:35:18,207 --> 00:35:22,679
that I think at the behest of clients and their

704
00:35:22,679 --> 00:35:27,500
expectations, the Association of corporate counsel.

705
00:35:27,500 --> 00:35:31,780
That's a group that that the national task or similar

706
00:35:31,861 --> 00:35:32,749
well being.

707
00:35:32,749 --> 00:35:36,487
We really want to court and bring them on board

708
00:35:36,567 --> 00:35:39,748
as a member because we see that as a key

709
00:35:39,827 --> 00:35:42,770
pressure point within the profession.

710
00:35:42,770 --> 00:35:47,341
Tip for the clients to have an expectation that if

711
00:35:47,432 --> 00:35:49,078
they get assigned,

712
00:35:49,078 --> 00:35:52,863
a lawyer, that lawyer is not going to be,

713
00:35:52,863 --> 00:35:56,676
you know, has had 20 hours of sleep in the

714
00:35:56,767 --> 00:36:00,579
last week in his fueled on Red Bull an you

715
00:36:00,670 --> 00:36:05,300
know Starbucks that they are able to think clearly.

716
00:36:05,300 --> 00:36:09,806
An creatively affectively quickly on their cases.

717
00:36:09,806 --> 00:36:13,050
You don't want to be assigned a dud.

718
00:36:13,050 --> 00:36:16,493
Do you think about if you're going in for surgery,

719
00:36:16,493 --> 00:36:20,102
what? What kind of condition do you want your surgeon

720
00:36:20,170 --> 00:36:23,166
to be in an as the clients become more aware

721
00:36:23,234 --> 00:36:24,324
of these issues,

722
00:36:24,324 --> 00:36:28,105
I think they're going to make more demands around that.

723
00:36:28,105 --> 00:36:31,314
You know we saw are seeing starting a few years

724
00:36:31,382 --> 00:36:34,181
ago a demand by clients around diversity,

725
00:36:34,181 --> 00:36:37,481
equity and inclusion to such that now in the big

726
00:36:37,550 --> 00:36:37,962
firms,

727
00:36:37,962 --> 00:36:41,202
a lot of times they'll have an entire section of

728
00:36:41,270 --> 00:36:43,160
their website or one of the.

729
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,834
Buttons across the top, you know,

730
00:36:45,834 --> 00:36:49,792
is it DI or diversity or inclusion or something so

731
00:36:49,871 --> 00:36:54,145
that they are really sending a signal to their clients

732
00:36:54,224 --> 00:36:57,944
that this is a priority among the farms for the

733
00:36:57,944 --> 00:37:01,612
for the farm an. We are hoping that using that

734
00:37:01,692 --> 00:37:03,606
model that lawyer major,

735
00:37:03,606 --> 00:37:08,712
the really big large corporate firms can start looking at

736
00:37:08,802 --> 00:37:09,250
that.

737
00:37:09,250 --> 00:37:11,826
And being able to come out or snake sell to

738
00:37:11,886 --> 00:37:14,042
their clients that when you hire us,

739
00:37:14,042 --> 00:37:16,632
you're going to get a lawyer who is in good

740
00:37:16,693 --> 00:37:17,295
condition.

741
00:37:17,295 --> 00:37:19,543
Basically, they're going to say that,

742
00:37:19,543 --> 00:37:21,850
but that's affectively what's going on.

743
00:37:24,130 --> 00:37:28,485
And that's in. That's probably not real popular to hear,

744
00:37:28,485 --> 00:37:31,500
but I think it needs to be said.

745
00:37:31,500 --> 00:37:35,190
So. Following up on that breed.

746
00:37:35,190 --> 00:37:38,421
Both on the Wellness of the lawyers,

747
00:37:38,421 --> 00:37:42,438
the clients pushing for that culture improve,

748
00:37:42,438 --> 00:37:48,152
and given that we're having this conversation in the middle

749
00:37:48,248 --> 00:37:55,027
of widespread worldwide protests about the treatment of black citizens

750
00:37:55,124 --> 00:37:56,480
by the police.

751
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:58,936
So wrapping diversity into that,

752
00:37:58,936 --> 00:38:01,933
how do we and can we skip over the firms

753
00:38:02,007 --> 00:38:06,128
in some ways to communicate directly with the big money

754
00:38:06,203 --> 00:38:10,098
corporate clients so that it's not just putting up a

755
00:38:10,098 --> 00:38:14,556
diversity inclusion tab on your website or telling them You

756
00:38:14,631 --> 00:38:15,009
know,

757
00:38:15,009 --> 00:38:18,581
we encourage our our associates to exercise or,

758
00:38:18,581 --> 00:38:21,557
you know we have lunch time meditation,

759
00:38:21,557 --> 00:38:24,534
can we? and I mean the sort of Royal way

760
00:38:24,608 --> 00:38:28,180
of those that really want to fix these problems?

761
00:38:28,180 --> 00:38:30,290
Um weather be the Wellness,

762
00:38:30,290 --> 00:38:34,840
peace and the diversity peace which is connected because the

763
00:38:34,916 --> 00:38:39,314
lawyers of color feel enormously isolated and drift out of

764
00:38:39,389 --> 00:38:42,271
the profession at rates that are very,

765
00:38:42,271 --> 00:38:44,984
very sad because they are isolated.

766
00:38:44,984 --> 00:38:49,409
Because the white male controlled firms are not doing more

767
00:38:49,486 --> 00:38:51,088
to make them welcome.

768
00:38:51,088 --> 00:38:55,138
So so again my question is having really studied this

769
00:38:55,214 --> 00:38:56,513
the way you have?

770
00:38:56,513 --> 00:39:00,130
Can we leapfrog or end around the firms and get?

771
00:39:00,130 --> 00:39:04,113
Write to corporate America and say you're you are part

772
00:39:04,187 --> 00:39:06,990
of the of a solution that needs to be.

773
00:39:06,990 --> 00:39:10,150
Facilitated in the legal profession.

774
00:39:10,150 --> 00:39:13,596
That is a strategy that the National Task Force and

775
00:39:13,663 --> 00:39:16,501
lawyer well being is wanting to implement.

776
00:39:16,501 --> 00:39:18,380
I think it's.

777
00:39:18,380 --> 00:39:21,749
Pretty aggressive. We've not undertaken that yet,

778
00:39:21,749 --> 00:39:23,568
but I I see that is a key.

779
00:39:23,568 --> 00:39:25,387
You know, we've looked at.

780
00:39:25,387 --> 00:39:29,197
What are the different pressure points where we can make

781
00:39:29,265 --> 00:39:32,327
the firms be willing to change their culture?

782
00:39:32,327 --> 00:39:35,021
I mean, that is a lot that were asking,

783
00:39:35,021 --> 00:39:37,475
and so we know that we had to make a

784
00:39:37,543 --> 00:39:40,883
good business case that if you have well lawyers,

785
00:39:40,883 --> 00:39:43,309
you're going to be more profitable.

786
00:39:43,309 --> 00:39:46,303
The way I think we go to the clients is

787
00:39:46,380 --> 00:39:48,530
going to have to be through.

788
00:39:48,530 --> 00:39:53,547
Association of corporate counsel would be one also finding out

789
00:39:53,628 --> 00:39:58,241
who are the really large corporate counsel that are going

790
00:39:58,322 --> 00:40:02,368
to have the most sway within the legal profession.

791
00:40:02,368 --> 00:40:05,345
So looking at I don't know Wal Mart,

792
00:40:05,345 --> 00:40:08,783
Exxon, etc. And finding a way that,

793
00:40:08,783 --> 00:40:13,979
uh, enter into discussions with them and education and hopefully

794
00:40:14,060 --> 00:40:18,282
getting them to make it a priority that what they're

795
00:40:18,363 --> 00:40:19,337
looking for.

796
00:40:19,337 --> 00:40:23,365
Our law firms who have a good focus on diversity,

797
00:40:23,365 --> 00:40:27,859
equity, and inclusion. That law firms that have a focus

798
00:40:27,941 --> 00:40:29,085
on well being.

799
00:40:29,085 --> 00:40:31,179
And that is a real focus,

800
00:40:31,179 --> 00:40:34,079
not just the fun runs at lunchtime.

801
00:40:34,079 --> 00:40:38,079
That sort of thing. And I think that's something that

802
00:40:38,154 --> 00:40:39,739
hasn't been done yet,

803
00:40:39,739 --> 00:40:41,459
because it's a heavy lift,

804
00:40:41,459 --> 00:40:46,018
but it's definitely something that the national taskforce employer well

805
00:40:46,082 --> 00:40:49,935
being is hoping to accomplish in the relatively near future,

806
00:40:49,935 --> 00:40:52,102
because it's a key piece of that.

807
00:40:52,102 --> 00:40:53,950
It's just like another area,

808
00:40:53,950 --> 00:40:58,474
another stakeholder that we identified where the malpractice carriers,

809
00:40:58,474 --> 00:41:00,450
because we felt that they have.

810
00:41:00,450 --> 00:41:04,832
Uh oh, finger on the really the profitability of the

811
00:41:04,916 --> 00:41:08,876
legal profession because they control the milk,

812
00:41:08,876 --> 00:41:12,404
the rates that law firms pay and so how do

813
00:41:12,488 --> 00:41:16,605
we bring them into the mix and start getting them

814
00:41:16,689 --> 00:41:21,057
to require law firms to have policy's notice to roll

815
00:41:21,057 --> 00:41:23,894
basic thing? And this is a check,

816
00:41:23,894 --> 00:41:28,289
the box kind of thing that a corporate counsel could

817
00:41:28,374 --> 00:41:30,402
be looking for would be,

818
00:41:30,402 --> 00:41:34,740
do you have policies around what a person should do?

819
00:41:34,740 --> 00:41:39,860
If they're having a mental health or behavioral health concern.

820
00:41:39,860 --> 00:41:41,991
And 98% or more of the law firms do not

821
00:41:42,046 --> 00:41:43,959
have any policy is related to that.

822
00:41:43,959 --> 00:41:46,890
I mean, basically the closest they're going to be able

823
00:41:46,945 --> 00:41:49,224
to tell you is that what we don't you know

824
00:41:49,279 --> 00:41:52,210
that will show you the policy where you're not allowed

825
00:41:52,210 --> 00:41:55,230
to drink alcohol during the day or something like that.

826
00:41:55,230 --> 00:41:57,441
Or have a list of drugs on the premises,

827
00:41:57,441 --> 00:42:01,255
and that's about it. But we we've seen anecdotally where

828
00:42:01,323 --> 00:42:02,277
in a law firm,

829
00:42:02,277 --> 00:42:04,896
has a policy that makes it clear who do you

830
00:42:04,957 --> 00:42:06,053
go to in law firm.

831
00:42:06,053 --> 00:42:09,324
Make it clear that your communications are going to be

832
00:42:09,384 --> 00:42:11,928
confidential that have supported services,

833
00:42:11,928 --> 00:42:14,805
etc, that if you have to go away for treatment,

834
00:42:14,805 --> 00:42:17,883
hit. Here is how you will be incorporated back into

835
00:42:17,943 --> 00:42:20,840
the firm and how you'll be treated when you have

836
00:42:20,901 --> 00:42:23,496
that level of forethought and transparency.

837
00:42:23,496 --> 00:42:27,024
It increases the rates of people coming forward and asking

838
00:42:27,085 --> 00:42:27,632
for help,

839
00:42:27,632 --> 00:42:30,030
so that you know that is sort of just a.

840
00:42:30,030 --> 00:42:31,565
Check the box of us,

841
00:42:31,565 --> 00:42:36,563
something that major corporate client or a malpractice carrier could

842
00:42:36,637 --> 00:42:40,312
demand of a law firm to show that they're actually

843
00:42:40,385 --> 00:42:44,869
putting into place some policies or procedures that will have

844
00:42:44,869 --> 00:42:49,752
an impact. On the quality of representation that people are

845
00:42:49,835 --> 00:42:51,490
getting at the farm.

846
00:42:51,490 --> 00:42:55,350
So Bob and I have been talking about the report

847
00:42:55,433 --> 00:42:59,539
you coauthored and part of my own advocate is just

848
00:42:59,622 --> 00:43:01,100
talking about how.

849
00:43:01,100 --> 00:43:10,357
Lawyers can really find satisfaction in this hyper competitive pressure

850
00:43:10,487 --> 00:43:11,400
filled.

851
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:16,019
Profession that were probably the most neurotic profession out there.

852
00:43:16,019 --> 00:43:17,801
It's gotta be true, right?

853
00:43:17,801 --> 00:43:21,034
I don't know if they have any empirical studies.

854
00:43:21,034 --> 00:43:22,816
Yeah, I'll go with it too.

855
00:43:22,816 --> 00:43:27,781
And it's. I am constantly especially trailers,

856
00:43:27,781 --> 00:43:32,970
specially guys like Bob very neurotic and the.

857
00:43:32,970 --> 00:43:36,386
It's always amazing to me when we have these conversations

858
00:43:36,445 --> 00:43:38,388
and I and I think back to myself.

859
00:43:38,388 --> 00:43:41,236
My first two years and where I've been along the

860
00:43:41,295 --> 00:43:41,592
path.

861
00:43:41,592 --> 00:43:43,864
And if somebody could have intervened,

862
00:43:43,864 --> 00:43:47,881
said to Maine. Here is how you gonna find more

863
00:43:47,968 --> 00:43:48,841
happiness.

864
00:43:48,841 --> 00:43:51,940
Or here's how you going to two.

865
00:43:51,940 --> 00:43:54,879
Go deeper inside yourself and you'll actually be able to

866
00:43:54,931 --> 00:43:55,666
better lawyer,

867
00:43:55,666 --> 00:43:57,968
but you'll have a lot more Peace of Mind and

868
00:43:58,020 --> 00:44:00,479
the paradox of vulnerability to use that again,

869
00:44:00,479 --> 00:44:04,091
that moving towards vulnerability moving twords fear moving towards a

870
00:44:04,143 --> 00:44:05,033
mistake you know.

871
00:44:05,033 --> 00:44:07,506
Even just a second ago when you lost your train

872
00:44:07,559 --> 00:44:08,138
of thought,

873
00:44:08,138 --> 00:44:10,286
I saw the look on your face when you lost

874
00:44:10,339 --> 00:44:12,382
your train of thought when you talking,

875
00:44:12,382 --> 00:44:14,622
and I've had this in court where you all of

876
00:44:14,674 --> 00:44:17,383
a sudden lose your train of thought and you're doing

877
00:44:17,435 --> 00:44:20,248
something and the world can collapse on you and you're

878
00:44:20,248 --> 00:44:22,835
feeling the whole inner critic starts to come in.

879
00:44:22,835 --> 00:44:24,750
I'm doing this and everybody sees me.

880
00:44:24,750 --> 00:44:28,057
Right, and I'm embarrassed. I'm ashamed and and if you

881
00:44:28,118 --> 00:44:29,159
start to get one,

882
00:44:29,159 --> 00:44:32,840
starts get closer to those places inside themselves.

883
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,440
A whole New World opens up and I'm.

884
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,286
The conversation is. I'm giving a little speech,

885
00:44:39,286 --> 00:44:42,974
not a question, but the conversation we've been having is

886
00:44:43,039 --> 00:44:45,886
about whether it's going to be a top down or

887
00:44:45,951 --> 00:44:48,280
a bottom up shift in the profession.

888
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:52,080
And I guess the question for you is is.

889
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:53,776
What are those practices that,

890
00:44:53,776 --> 00:44:57,107
and you alluded to, some of them in yourself that

891
00:44:57,175 --> 00:44:59,010
could really help a lawyer?

892
00:44:59,010 --> 00:45:02,547
To manage themselves and to be able to live in

893
00:45:02,624 --> 00:45:05,469
a way not from a moral point of view,

894
00:45:05,469 --> 00:45:07,749
but from just being affected.

895
00:45:07,749 --> 00:45:12,134
What are the kinds of personal practices that folks can

896
00:45:12,214 --> 00:45:16,758
start to work on that will shift their consciousness that

897
00:45:16,838 --> 00:45:19,070
leads to better choices and?

898
00:45:19,070 --> 00:45:21,056
Um, make some healthier sure,

899
00:45:21,056 --> 00:45:23,837
and let me preface my comments by saying,

900
00:45:23,837 --> 00:45:27,126
and this is the task force national task force is

901
00:45:27,193 --> 00:45:28,603
very mindful of this.

902
00:45:28,603 --> 00:45:32,999
We're not. We're about bringing about systemic change and systemic

903
00:45:33,065 --> 00:45:36,595
change in the legal profession is not going to happen

904
00:45:36,662 --> 00:45:39,659
from individual lawyers taking these actions.

905
00:45:39,659 --> 00:45:43,748
I'm talking about systemic change will occur when the leaders

906
00:45:43,815 --> 00:45:45,021
of the profession,

907
00:45:45,021 --> 00:45:47,272
the Supreme Courts of each state,

908
00:45:47,272 --> 00:45:49,920
etc. Implement policies, practices, etc.

909
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:53,982
That are going to support the the members of the

910
00:45:54,066 --> 00:45:54,997
profession,

911
00:45:54,997 --> 00:45:58,660
so that's where systemic change comes from.

912
00:45:58,660 --> 00:46:02,655
At the same time, it is imperative for our own,

913
00:46:02,655 --> 00:46:07,649
I think, survival, if not just basic personal satisfaction,

914
00:46:07,649 --> 00:46:11,865
to engage in basically a program of self care that

915
00:46:11,950 --> 00:46:14,058
I had alluded to earlier.

916
00:46:14,058 --> 00:46:17,610
So the thing that I talk about is the best

917
00:46:17,694 --> 00:46:19,301
go to for a lawyer,

918
00:46:19,301 --> 00:46:23,815
a trial lawyer. Um, somebody who is super busy in

919
00:46:23,907 --> 00:46:24,920
wants fast.

920
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:29,133
The facts are powerful effects in the least amount of

921
00:46:29,213 --> 00:46:29,610
time.

922
00:46:29,610 --> 00:46:33,436
And I would say that is meditation and you know

923
00:46:33,518 --> 00:46:37,914
we hear a lot about mindfulness and mindful eating and

924
00:46:37,995 --> 00:46:43,287
mindful flower picking and But I'm talking about specifically the

925
00:46:43,287 --> 00:46:47,134
hard thing of meditating and sitting down and for 10

926
00:46:47,208 --> 00:46:50,981
minutes or 15 minutes an learning how to focus your

927
00:46:51,055 --> 00:46:55,198
mind on one particular object or something that is going

928
00:46:55,198 --> 00:46:59,157
on in the present moment and letting go of discursive

929
00:46:59,231 --> 00:46:59,829
thought.

930
00:46:59,829 --> 00:47:01,594
All that sort of thing.

931
00:47:01,594 --> 00:47:05,785
That continual ticker tape of thoughts that go across our

932
00:47:05,858 --> 00:47:09,975
mind constantly and the studies about the effects on our

933
00:47:10,049 --> 00:47:10,490
brain.

934
00:47:10,490 --> 00:47:14,179
As we know the issue of neuroplasticity that our brains

935
00:47:14,246 --> 00:47:15,990
can change for the better.

936
00:47:15,990 --> 00:47:18,212
That it is highly effective,

937
00:47:18,212 --> 00:47:21,123
and so for my experience in recovery,

938
00:47:21,123 --> 00:47:24,795
taking care of myself. That was a core piece of

939
00:47:24,873 --> 00:47:25,107
it,

940
00:47:25,107 --> 00:47:28,248
and so I've meditated for over 10 years.

941
00:47:28,248 --> 00:47:33,381
I've taught meditation. I've taught meditation for little lawyers.

942
00:47:33,381 --> 00:47:36,364
You know it's not. It's simple,

943
00:47:36,364 --> 00:47:39,370
it's straightforward, but it is not easy to do.

944
00:47:39,370 --> 00:47:42,878
It takes discipline. It's like exercise for your brain,

945
00:47:42,878 --> 00:47:45,905
you know and and you sit down and meditation and

946
00:47:45,968 --> 00:47:49,625
what you're really doing is focusing on the present moment

947
00:47:49,688 --> 00:47:52,021
and every time your mind wanders off,

948
00:47:52,021 --> 00:47:55,200
which will do constantly, you bring it back to the

949
00:47:55,263 --> 00:47:56,217
present moment.

950
00:47:56,217 --> 00:47:58,159
And that's like the, you know,

951
00:47:58,159 --> 00:48:01,094
the the arm curl of that you're doing for your

952
00:48:01,158 --> 00:48:01,541
brain,

953
00:48:01,541 --> 00:48:04,297
and you do that over and over again and your

954
00:48:04,359 --> 00:48:07,240
brain cheese a greater ability to concentrate.

955
00:48:07,240 --> 00:48:10,918
To see clearly to the heart of the matter.

956
00:48:10,918 --> 00:48:13,741
To discern things, you can read.

957
00:48:13,741 --> 00:48:18,393
Witness is better. You have better insights into a fax

958
00:48:18,479 --> 00:48:23,130
scenarios in case is the amount of things that benefit

959
00:48:23,216 --> 00:48:26,059
lawyers from that or just Legion.

960
00:48:26,059 --> 00:48:29,309
And there are so many cops out there.

961
00:48:29,309 --> 00:48:33,319
Yeah, yeah. Able to read what's happening in a trial

962
00:48:33,397 --> 00:48:37,716
setting and preparation that I had been before I started

963
00:48:37,793 --> 00:48:38,641
meditating.

964
00:48:38,641 --> 00:48:42,721
Absolutely. You can just hone in on it in concentrate

965
00:48:42,798 --> 00:48:46,416
so much better with our current sort of mode of

966
00:48:46,493 --> 00:48:46,955
being,

967
00:48:46,955 --> 00:48:52,110
which is constant incessant distractions from looking at our phones

968
00:48:52,187 --> 00:48:55,650
and constant notifications and median coming.

969
00:48:55,650 --> 00:48:59,693
We have trained our brains to be very superficial and

970
00:48:59,769 --> 00:49:01,600
a pop around constantly.

971
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:04,759
And what we as lawyers need is the ability to

972
00:49:04,829 --> 00:49:05,250
focus,

973
00:49:05,250 --> 00:49:09,303
concentrate, go deep and take some facts and scenarios and

974
00:49:09,372 --> 00:49:10,141
analyze it.

975
00:49:10,141 --> 00:49:13,626
Move it around and try out different things and so

976
00:49:13,695 --> 00:49:15,995
the meditation helps out so much.

977
00:49:15,995 --> 00:49:19,095
And it's something that you can do honestly.

978
00:49:19,095 --> 00:49:22,056
In 10 minutes a day if you're disciplined.

979
00:49:22,056 --> 00:49:23,503
If it works for you,

980
00:49:23,503 --> 00:49:25,961
you may decide to go up to 15 or 20

981
00:49:26,032 --> 00:49:27,015
minutes a day.

982
00:49:27,015 --> 00:49:30,252
Do it everyday an after two or three months you

983
00:49:30,321 --> 00:49:32,250
will notice that your brain.

984
00:49:32,250 --> 00:49:35,604
Works better just like if you went to the gym

985
00:49:35,679 --> 00:49:37,766
and you started working out.

986
00:49:37,766 --> 00:49:39,825
It's a It's the same thing,

987
00:49:39,825 --> 00:49:43,034
so that's that's the best go to I can think

988
00:49:43,108 --> 00:49:44,974
of their other practices,

989
00:49:44,974 --> 00:49:47,300
but that's the most important.

990
00:49:47,300 --> 00:49:51,537
You know what? what I sort of like to bring

991
00:49:51,635 --> 00:49:53,409
your listeners on.

992
00:49:53,409 --> 00:49:57,593
This episode is. All of the things you've identified and

993
00:49:57,667 --> 00:50:02,150
we've talked about or are enormously important to implement.

994
00:50:02,150 --> 00:50:04,599
Communication to me is number one uhm,

995
00:50:04,599 --> 00:50:07,549
lawyers doing just what we're doing right now,

996
00:50:07,549 --> 00:50:10,940
which is talking to one another about works for them.

997
00:50:10,940 --> 00:50:12,698
Those that are in recovery,

998
00:50:12,698 --> 00:50:16,182
like yourself, those like Jeff and I who have struggled

999
00:50:16,245 --> 00:50:19,349
for years trying to get our arms and heads around

1000
00:50:19,412 --> 00:50:19,729
this.

1001
00:50:19,729 --> 00:50:21,236
The report, by the way,

1002
00:50:21,236 --> 00:50:24,312
is it. Lawyer wellbeing.net lawyers can find it.

1003
00:50:24,312 --> 00:50:27,382
Read it and to take away from me is talk

1004
00:50:27,459 --> 00:50:28,380
about it so.

1005
00:50:28,380 --> 00:50:33,193
You know, so Jeff. Certified to teach meditation to lawyers,

1006
00:50:33,193 --> 00:50:36,191
Ann. I'm a certified yoga instructor,

1007
00:50:36,191 --> 00:50:39,660
alright, and I can say that.

1008
00:50:39,660 --> 00:50:41,480
You know the best you know.

1009
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:45,861
Closing arguments and performances in the courtroom I've given have

1010
00:50:45,927 --> 00:50:48,804
been over the last short term as a result of

1011
00:50:48,869 --> 00:50:52,335
doing the things you're talking about an I still have

1012
00:50:52,335 --> 00:50:55,065
the instinct to the night before closing.

1013
00:50:55,065 --> 00:50:57,340
Let me get to the conference room.

1014
00:50:57,340 --> 00:51:00,070
We write things down over and over again.

1015
00:51:00,070 --> 00:51:02,511
And when I when I stop myself an I go

1016
00:51:02,577 --> 00:51:04,490
to yoga class or a meditator.

1017
00:51:04,490 --> 00:51:06,245
I do both of those things.

1018
00:51:06,245 --> 00:51:09,920
Invariably, my performance is so much better.

1019
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:11,995
Because of course, I already know my case.

1020
00:51:11,995 --> 00:51:14,262
I don't have to write things down over and over

1021
00:51:14,311 --> 00:51:14,600
again.

1022
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:18,255
It doesn't mean I won't have an outline or some

1023
00:51:18,333 --> 00:51:20,121
prompts in the morning,

1024
00:51:20,121 --> 00:51:23,633
but but my time is better spent in freeing my

1025
00:51:23,711 --> 00:51:24,569
creativity,

1026
00:51:24,569 --> 00:51:26,870
up, up, and So what can we do?

1027
00:51:26,870 --> 00:51:30,346
To help create those person to person dialogues,

1028
00:51:30,346 --> 00:51:34,806
whether it's mentoring, whether it's some kind of small groups

1029
00:51:34,878 --> 00:51:35,525
in firms,

1030
00:51:35,525 --> 00:51:39,109
can you speak that you have some ideas or thoughts

1031
00:51:39,180 --> 00:51:42,549
affirms organizations that employers out there?

1032
00:51:42,549 --> 00:51:45,020
How do we create that?

1033
00:51:45,020 --> 00:51:48,400
I have seen during the with the pandemic there's been

1034
00:51:48,464 --> 00:51:50,824
a real focus and an I an I still live

1035
00:51:50,888 --> 00:51:54,204
in the world around lawyer well being and the people

1036
00:51:54,204 --> 00:51:56,358
that are working on those issues,

1037
00:51:56,358 --> 00:51:59,739
but an attempt to create spaces through zoom or other

1038
00:51:59,803 --> 00:52:03,694
online meeting platforms for people to come together and just

1039
00:52:03,758 --> 00:52:05,289
share how they're doing,

1040
00:52:05,289 --> 00:52:08,237
and so I'm hoping that that is a practice that

1041
00:52:08,301 --> 00:52:10,673
can continue because it's convenient.

1042
00:52:10,673 --> 00:52:12,256
It's easy and these are,

1043
00:52:12,256 --> 00:52:16,251
you know people are getting together and they're talking about

1044
00:52:16,316 --> 00:52:17,540
how they're coping.

1045
00:52:17,540 --> 00:52:21,060
How they're coping with work from home with kids that

1046
00:52:21,127 --> 00:52:23,651
they're supposed to be home schooling,

1047
00:52:23,651 --> 00:52:26,838
that sort of thing just to create some circle of

1048
00:52:26,904 --> 00:52:30,157
support and break through some of that isolation.

1049
00:52:30,157 --> 00:52:33,002
and I think that that would be a thing that

1050
00:52:33,068 --> 00:52:36,971
could really be helpful going forward in the future because

1051
00:52:37,037 --> 00:52:39,750
even when we go back to to the offices or

1052
00:52:39,750 --> 00:52:42,815
some of us do, this is still a profession that

1053
00:52:42,881 --> 00:52:44,547
is played with isolation.

1054
00:52:44,547 --> 00:52:47,373
So that could be one thing I think also for

1055
00:52:47,439 --> 00:52:48,030
this and.

1056
00:52:48,030 --> 00:52:51,737
Any other thing that we talk about in regards to

1057
00:52:51,814 --> 00:52:56,138
practice is that UM or strategies to promote well-being,

1058
00:52:56,138 --> 00:52:58,279
ascential to it with firms,

1059
00:52:58,279 --> 00:53:02,913
is that leadership participate? It's not just that they send

1060
00:53:02,990 --> 00:53:06,234
out an email saying I want you to do this,

1061
00:53:06,234 --> 00:53:08,146
but if you if they have,

1062
00:53:08,146 --> 00:53:13,089
you know a lunchtime meditation that the managing partner you

1063
00:53:13,170 --> 00:53:16,493
know at least once a week shows up and is

1064
00:53:16,574 --> 00:53:17,060
there.

1065
00:53:17,060 --> 00:53:18,881
When I talk to law schools,

1066
00:53:18,881 --> 00:53:21,993
it's about you know if you want the students to

1067
00:53:22,060 --> 00:53:22,457
do it,

1068
00:53:22,457 --> 00:53:25,748
you have to have a faculty member who's willing to

1069
00:53:25,814 --> 00:53:27,789
show up and be a part of that.

1070
00:53:27,789 --> 00:53:31,540
When people see that the leadership is doing these things

1071
00:53:31,606 --> 00:53:33,185
and it's you meditating,

1072
00:53:33,185 --> 00:53:36,371
doing yoga, walking, taking a freaking vacation,

1073
00:53:36,371 --> 00:53:37,997
how about that for real?

1074
00:53:37,997 --> 00:53:41,692
Are eel vacation? That is when the culture change starts

1075
00:53:41,758 --> 00:53:42,418
to happen,

1076
00:53:42,418 --> 00:53:45,075
but it cannot be just a who did with our

1077
00:53:45,142 --> 00:53:45,474
kids,

1078
00:53:45,474 --> 00:53:47,360
right? You know, do as I say.

1079
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:48,929
It's gotta be do as I do,

1080
00:53:48,929 --> 00:53:52,066
and so again, we're talking about systemic changes.

1081
00:53:52,066 --> 00:53:53,574
Gotta come from the top.

1082
00:53:53,574 --> 00:53:55,444
They, the leaders of the firm,

1083
00:53:55,444 --> 00:53:57,978
have to be believers and set the example.

1084
00:53:57,978 --> 00:54:00,840
And they have to suit up and show up.

1085
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:03,627
What pretty when I listen to you talk and I

1086
00:54:03,692 --> 00:54:06,609
read the report and I have my own experience.

1087
00:54:06,609 --> 00:54:09,479
what I what I find in the profession is kind

1088
00:54:09,544 --> 00:54:10,327
of stunning.

1089
00:54:10,327 --> 00:54:13,815
Lack of emotional intelligence and this is a term that

1090
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:16,786
has been is out there in the universe now and

1091
00:54:16,851 --> 00:54:18,595
it really is for listeners.

1092
00:54:18,595 --> 00:54:20,967
Don't know it's emotional awareness,

1093
00:54:20,967 --> 00:54:24,840
it's the ability to identify and Name your emotions.

1094
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:28,080
The ability to self regulate you talk about it in

1095
00:54:28,146 --> 00:54:31,584
terms of people abusing substances is sort of a self

1096
00:54:31,650 --> 00:54:32,377
regulation.

1097
00:54:32,377 --> 00:54:36,760
Peace. They teach us in law school.

1098
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:39,964
So use our minds, but the emotions are completely left

1099
00:54:40,023 --> 00:54:43,168
out and you're told obviously over and over again and

1100
00:54:43,227 --> 00:54:44,829
you're being too emotional.

1101
00:54:44,829 --> 00:54:49,348
I heard another settlement conference recently where a settlement conference

1102
00:54:49,407 --> 00:54:51,191
judge admonish another lawyer.

1103
00:54:51,191 --> 00:54:53,920
Think you're being too emotional and.

1104
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:55,688
And he was right. Actually,

1105
00:54:55,688 --> 00:54:58,150
this settlement judge. I think it was,

1106
00:54:58,150 --> 00:55:01,390
but the emotions weren't factored in to the mix and

1107
00:55:01,454 --> 00:55:05,075
the fact that lawyers are almost illiterate when it comes

1108
00:55:05,138 --> 00:55:08,188
to emotions seems to be one of the problems that

1109
00:55:08,188 --> 00:55:11,597
plague us enough back to your question about leaders,

1110
00:55:11,597 --> 00:55:15,090
how could a leader in a law firm?

1111
00:55:15,090 --> 00:55:19,027
Start to really foster a culture in the simplest way.

1112
00:55:19,027 --> 00:55:23,900
You can explain. Foster a culture of emotional intelligence in

1113
00:55:23,978 --> 00:55:26,100
a law firm or organization.

1114
00:55:26,100 --> 00:55:30,254
The first thing that comes to mind is communication from

1115
00:55:30,328 --> 00:55:34,185
that later and to be to communicate with their staff

1116
00:55:34,260 --> 00:55:36,930
regularly and speak from that space.

1117
00:55:36,930 --> 00:55:40,645
To give an example in regards to the pandemic that

1118
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:44,805
we're going through right now with an advisor with curl

1119
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:45,697
strategies,

1120
00:55:45,697 --> 00:55:50,117
and we're telling big firms right now is it's imperative

1121
00:55:50,196 --> 00:55:54,458
that you ramp up your level of communication with your

1122
00:55:54,536 --> 00:55:55,010
staff.

1123
00:55:55,010 --> 00:55:59,610
And not just about brass tacks but also about feelings,

1124
00:55:59,610 --> 00:56:05,101
emotions from leadership, communicate with one another from a very

1125
00:56:05,184 --> 00:56:06,099
real place,

1126
00:56:06,099 --> 00:56:09,990
and that's going to help set a standard or make

1127
00:56:10,073 --> 00:56:14,627
it OK for your employees to communicate from that space

1128
00:56:14,710 --> 00:56:16,614
or make it more likely.

1129
00:56:16,614 --> 00:56:20,228
So again I keep getting back to leadership,

1130
00:56:20,228 --> 00:56:23,910
but it is. It is so critical.

1131
00:56:23,910 --> 00:56:27,838
So, Bree, you are one of the national leaders really.

1132
00:56:27,838 --> 00:56:30,165
In the dialogue about Wellness.

1133
00:56:30,165 --> 00:56:33,802
Where can firms, lawyers, organizations find you?

1134
00:56:33,802 --> 00:56:35,547
What are you doing now?

1135
00:56:35,547 --> 00:56:39,075
Tell our listeners it will all be in the episode

1136
00:56:39,149 --> 00:56:42,530
notes for people that want to find it as well.

1137
00:56:42,530 --> 00:56:45,730
The link to the wonderful report you wrote.

1138
00:56:45,730 --> 00:56:49,415
But can you share with folks what you're doing and

1139
00:56:49,489 --> 00:56:51,258
where they can find you?

1140
00:56:51,258 --> 00:56:54,022
Yeah, I wear too many hats right now,

1141
00:56:54,022 --> 00:56:56,721
so. The main one is krill strategies.

1142
00:56:56,721 --> 00:57:00,831
Some senior advisor with girl strategies and then I also

1143
00:57:00,905 --> 00:57:05,235
end the chair of the ABA's Commission on lawyers assistance

1144
00:57:05,309 --> 00:57:09,199
programs and a founding Co chair of the National Task

1145
00:57:09,199 --> 00:57:12,746
Force. The lawyer will being so you can see what

1146
00:57:12,819 --> 00:57:15,110
I'm doing through all of those.

1147
00:57:15,110 --> 00:57:18,320
Gosh, if anybody wants to talk to me there,

1148
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:21,815
welcome to shoot me an email which is just Bree

1149
00:57:21,889 --> 00:57:22,261
1964.

1150
00:57:22,261 --> 00:57:24,450
OK, now you know how old I am.

1151
00:57:24,450 --> 00:57:28,364
At att more disclosures purchased the top of your game,

1152
00:57:28,364 --> 00:57:31,369
right? That's right, that's where you are.

1153
00:57:31,369 --> 00:57:35,423
Yeah, green1964@att.net, I'm happy to visit with anybody,

1154
00:57:35,423 --> 00:57:38,759
and if something that I said kind of sparked an

1155
00:57:38,830 --> 00:57:39,966
idea or concern,

1156
00:57:39,966 --> 00:57:42,133
I'm happy to visit with folks.

1157
00:57:42,133 --> 00:57:45,301
I mean, that's what I did for years at the

1158
00:57:45,376 --> 00:57:48,846
LAPD and I kind of miss just having these real

1159
00:57:48,921 --> 00:57:51,410
conversations with other lawyers.

1160
00:57:51,410 --> 00:57:53,746
So do you do personal coaching?

1161
00:57:53,746 --> 00:57:57,209
If if somebody who is running a law firm wanted

1162
00:57:57,282 --> 00:58:00,377
to get ahold of you and try to help change

1163
00:58:00,451 --> 00:58:01,482
their culture,

1164
00:58:01,482 --> 00:58:03,818
could they hire you as a coach?

1165
00:58:03,818 --> 00:58:08,927
Absolutely were not certified coach coaches but but what effectively?

1166
00:58:08,927 --> 00:58:12,613
What we do is guide and provide consultation for a

1167
00:58:12,686 --> 00:58:16,298
firm and in how to put into place pack practices,

1168
00:58:16,298 --> 00:58:19,874
procedures, policies to create a culture change.

1169
00:58:19,874 --> 00:58:21,480
Well, to let you know.

1170
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:25,398
People who are listening to iron advocate in our followers,

1171
00:58:25,398 --> 00:58:28,652
no. And we have talked about your report on prior

1172
00:58:28,718 --> 00:58:29,316
episodes.

1173
00:58:29,316 --> 00:58:31,733
It guided us, continues to guide us.

1174
00:58:31,733 --> 00:58:35,612
We appreciate the dialogue and encourage folks out there in

1175
00:58:35,677 --> 00:58:39,162
all kinds of legal organizations to reach out for you

1176
00:58:39,228 --> 00:58:41,397
and keep this conversation going.

1177
00:58:41,397 --> 00:58:43,814
Thanks so much for joining us today.

1178
00:58:43,814 --> 00:58:45,577
Bree, thank you Baba Jeff,

1179
00:58:45,577 --> 00:58:48,189
this was fun. Thank you for joining us.

1180
00:58:48,189 --> 00:58:51,650
We hope you've enjoyed this episode of iron advocate.

1181
00:58:51,650 --> 00:58:55,847
And that you take what you've learned an integrated into

1182
00:58:55,922 --> 00:58:57,946
your own personal practice.

1183
00:58:57,946 --> 00:59:01,945
As always, we leave you with a minute of mindfulness.

1184
00:59:01,945 --> 00:59:06,081
Breathe in. Breathe out and we'll see you