Ep 8 - Karl Racine

Currently, District of Columbia Attorney General Karl Racine finds himself engaged in groundbreaking litigation against President Donald Trump in which Attorney General Racine and his team recently won a historic decision from the United States Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit.  Groundbreaking work isn’t new to Karl Racine. In 2006, he became the first Black managing partner of an AmLaw 100 firm when he took over the helm at Venable.  Karl dives into the personal and professional challenges he faced during his time at Venable and his decision to leave in pursuit of becoming the District of Columbia’s first elected Attorney General.  We also discuss Karl’s time working for President Clinton and the burnout he suffered from such an intense job.  Oh yeah, along the way, Karl discusses Michael Jordan urging him to shoot more often and Manute Bol’s morning breath...Enjoy this episode of Iron Advocate as we continue to explore how lawyers can kill it in the practice of law without it killing us.

Transcript

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Currently District of Columbia Attorney General Karl Racine finds himself

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engaged in groundbreaking litigation against President Donald Trump in which

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Attorney General Racine and his team recently wanting historic decision

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from

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the United States Court of Appeals for the 4th circuit

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groundbreaking work is not new to Karl Racine.

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In 2006, he became the first black managing partner of

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Annam wall 100 firm when he took over the helm

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at Venable,

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Karl dives into the personal and professional challenges he faced.

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During his time at Venable and his decision to leave

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in pursuit of becoming the district of Columbia's first elected

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attorney general,

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we also discussed Karl's time working for President Clinton and

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the burnout he suffered from such an intense job.

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Oh yeah, along the way,

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Karl discuss is Michael Jordan urging him to shoot the

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ball more and minute bowls,

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morning breath. Enjoy this episode of iron advocate as we

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continue to explore how lawyers can kill it in the

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practice of law without it killing us.

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You're listening to iron advocate,

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the podcast dedicated to you,

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the trial attorney. Visionary. Unfiltered,

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no holds barred iron advocate.

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Join Bob live at Jeffrey Bowl and today's top legal

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minds on a journey to discover how to kill it

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in the law without it killing you.

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Because being the best advocate for others begins with being

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the best advocate for yourself.

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Priority being elected as the first attorney general.

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The District of Columbia. You were the managing partner at

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Venable.

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That's an Amlaw 100 firm.

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For those who don't know it.

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How did that job impact you?

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Tremendously, uh. First of all,

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you know I was very blessed and fortunate to have

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the opportunity to serve as managing partner back then in

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2006,

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when I became managing partner,

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I was the first African-American managing partner and am Law

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100 firm.

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It was lonely at the top or bottom,

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have a way you look at it.

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There weren't any other black folks in the top 100,

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and I gotta tell you,

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I remember going to a bunch of law firm management

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conferences.

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As you know, Jeff, A and Bob.

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I'm pretty social guy, I can get on with just

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about anybody,

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but I found those to be some of the most

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challenging social environments I'd ever navigated from and it kind

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of led me to believe that you know what?

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There's a reason why there haven't been other African Americans

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as managing partners at law firms,

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law firms are pretty status quo oriented,

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slow to change, slow to develop an insular organizations.

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Nonetheless, I took the opportunity to try to do all

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I could.

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To advance the Furman and also put a different face

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if you will,

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on what a law firm leader might look like.

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It might act like.

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So Karl, having lived that like literally,

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uhm. Give us some perspective on what we do to

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make the next car Racine not feel that way or

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how do we make more call received yet some $1,000,000

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question there and what you're really asking is how can

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law firms be more nurturing,

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more supportive of minority and women lawyers?

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I think a lot of it has to do with

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changing the culture of a law firm.

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And as as to women of course.

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What that means is that.

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They've got to be supportive of women as women enter

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the time period where they consider having families law firm

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success stories are plenty,

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and most of them tend to be white men.

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And trust me, I've seen those men have gotten to

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go into their houses,

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and I've seen who's running the show,

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and it's usually a full time wife,

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not a lot of law firm folks have an opportunity.

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Have a full time really smart person.

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Running the back office of their operation,

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and so that's a major issue in regards to women

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as far as people of color,

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you know candidly, alot of the stereo types continue to

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pervade.

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Uhm, I remember one time turning in a written product

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as a first year associate and I had somebody take

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a look at it and they told me they said

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man, you lucky I looked at that and I said

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Why is that?

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I said if I if I,

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if you had submitted that thing without me looking at

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it,

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you would have a reputation for as long as you're

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at this law firm.

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As being yet another African American who was a poor

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writer and so a lot of these stigma on earn

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most of the time a follow up people of color

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in the law. Let me just give you another vignette.

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I used to always tell folks at the law firm

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when we were dealing with a very talented lawyer who

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happened to be a person of color who was maybe

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going through a difficult time.

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I'd always point out that we're talking about a fifth

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or six year person.

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Here is somebody we've raised up.

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For five or six years,

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who survived it here? Believe me,

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there's no way we could raise up another person to

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have gone through all the travails at this person that

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we're talking about is gone through.

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It's our job to help them get through the stage

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of partnership.

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So yeah, law firms are tough places.

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There are places that are insular and closed up and

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other like golf clubs.

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It didn't allow certain people to come in.

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We have to continue to really push them to be

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inclusive.

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So call it when you add Venable did.

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Did you find that you're able to make some headway

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cutting through some of the stereotypes that provide you say

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they pervade their so underneath the surface?

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We know there there, but you can't always get your

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hands on him.

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What do you do to help and what did you

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do when you're working at a try to cut through

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some of that?

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Well number one. Just personally I always try to be

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all my game.

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I'm extremely well prepared for every meeting,

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always knew that were felt like eyes were on on

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Main in order to make sure I performed exceedingly well.

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And then when I became a leader,

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I tried my best to elevate others,

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women and people of color.

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In the summer, associate ranks associate ranks and partnership ranks

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and did little things as a managing partner.

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For example, I would just literally walk down a hallway

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and squat in an associate of colors office with the

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door open for a 5 or 10 minute chat.

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Um, that would, generally speaking Redound to that person's benefit,

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as people would say, Oh my God,

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they they know the managing part.

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I would also try to find out from every associate

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what is their objective and what kind of matters they

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want to work with.

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Here's the truth of the matter.

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Black folks, women, people of color in the law.

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They want the same thing to white folks want they

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want to work on challenging matters that stimulate them that

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are meaningful that allow them the opportunity to grow.

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I think that being an example and bringing people like

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that into your work is the best example that you

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can.

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Really show your partners as to the capacity of a

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group of lawyers who they may not have ordinarily had

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a chance to work with,

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or go to school with,

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or go to dinner with.

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So so called question about that what the pressure that

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must have been accompanying having to be on your game.

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We all want to be on our game all the

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time,

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but the extra pressure when you're the first ever managing

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partner African-American managing partner at AM 100 law firm.

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What was the toll it took on you to be,

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you know, for lack of a better term,

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almost the face of the race around there for those

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folks.

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I you know, I gotta tell you took a tremendous

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toll on main,

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that's the, uh, the fact of the matter of the

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truth is that you work at a law firm.

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You know, for money. And that's OK.

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That's part of the reason why we all get up

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and go to work.

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and I was paid quite handsomely as partnered Venable then

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as a managing partner at the firm.

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I gotta say that for that period of my life

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I felt like in hindsight,

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I was focusing the majority of my day on.

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Issues and matters and personnel things that really didn't,

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uh, cause me to derive much meaning from that.

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And as you and I have talked about Jeff and

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Bob,

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you know, I gotta tell you in the last year

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and a half or so of my tenure I became

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depressed.

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I'm were literally I walking into the building was a

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hard task and I used to feel like I'd put

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a mask on the mask of everything is OK,

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I'm confident. I'm proud I am,

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you know, the face of your excellent law firm and

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I'd wear that mask and then sure enough,

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at the end of the day,

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take that thing off. Um,

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and at times you know,

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just honestly want to curl up and go to bed

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because I felt like the bulk of my time was

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not being spent in a consistent way that I felt

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my talents needed to be devoted.

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How did you get through that period of time?

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Add heavily on friends. I relied heavily on my mother

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and then I gotta tell you,

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you know, I sought out counseling.

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I. I also sought out a a woman named Barbara

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Williams Skinner who provided some religious counseling and therapy to

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Maine and over a period of time,

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you know, felt you know stronger,

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more centered, more purpose. Continue to do my job at

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the firm and then would eventually the firm to run

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for Attorney General.

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I gotta say, I felt.

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Totally liberated, uh, once I left that the law firm.

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I gotta say, the law firm in Venable treated me

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exceedingly well.

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I'm sure it would have been a lot more challenging

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and difficult for me personally.

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Elsewhere, it's just that I wasn't devoting my skill set.

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In a way that brought me great meaning.

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So, Karl, you know, right?

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This isn't a referendum. On on Venable at all,

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this is a much broader discussion about the culture of

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the law that played out at one place,

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for, you know, an iron advocate,

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partly for Jeff, and I is born of this dialogue

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about how we try to have a dialogue like we're

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having with you and make an impact.

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So the themes that you're raising.

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While they played out with you as the kind of

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this face of the first African-American managing partner,

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I think there are inherent in lawyers everywhere because we're

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all you know asked to put on a variety of

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different roles and play parts which can be sold deadening.

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What do you say to every lawyer out there about?

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How you find your vision,

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what, what, what do you do and what did you

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do at that moment in time that allowed you would

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arrive at a place that has now brought you to

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something that clearly ignites you.

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Still within the law and is igniting you?

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Can you share with us?

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Yeah, you know, I think it was a lot of

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you know what I'll call the disparate types of therapy

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that I received.

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Again, you know, honest conversations with friends.

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You know, deep engagement with the person who knows me

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the best.

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That's my mother, a man then going out and talking

257
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to professionals as well as religious and spiritual folks.

258
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Kind of brought me right back to the center of

259
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why it is,

260
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you know, I was attracted to the law in the

261
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1st place.

262
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To be honest, I didn't get into the law to

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make a ton of money.

264
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I wasn't really thinking that way.

265
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I got into the law to try to use the

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law as a way to help someone else and that

267
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someone else being overwhelmingly.

268
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Vulnerable people. Uh, and so going back to that center

269
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that core what you're calling the vision means that you

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you know are back to the purpose of why you

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work so hard and you can have a better chance

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of finding the joy within all of this extraordinary hard

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work.

274
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And there is great joy to be found.

275
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Of course. Into practice law.

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I love listening to your your guys'

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podcast. You see in your faces here.

278
00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:11,759
Because you're always ready to crack a quick smile or

279
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make a joke about that big ass microphone.

280
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Bob has front of. Yeah,

281
00:13:17,089 --> 00:13:19,253
it's been. It's been fun.

282
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Listen, this is, uh, it's cathartic for us,

283
00:13:22,914 --> 00:13:27,271
right? You know, we've taken you know plenty of body

284
00:13:27,355 --> 00:13:31,126
shots like you have along the way and you fun

285
00:13:31,209 --> 00:13:34,980
is the word so you use the the ceremonial get

286
00:13:34,980 --> 00:13:38,974
get to your what really drives in your passion?

287
00:13:38,974 --> 00:13:42,890
So what drives car Racine right now?

288
00:13:42,890 --> 00:13:45,967
You know, I think what drives main,

289
00:13:45,967 --> 00:13:50,952
uh, is understanding the power that the office of Attorney

290
00:13:51,038 --> 00:13:55,852
General for the District of Columbia has and then trying

291
00:13:55,938 --> 00:14:01,095
to figure out ways with my extremely talented colleagues and

292
00:14:01,095 --> 00:14:05,008
team for us to use the law to help vulnerable

293
00:14:05,095 --> 00:14:06,052
people out.

294
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And we do that local E in a big way.

295
00:14:09,215 --> 00:14:13,915
And sometimes we're not popular for doing it because we

296
00:14:14,001 --> 00:14:14,770
go after.

297
00:14:14,770 --> 00:14:19,685
Historic longstanding big donors to politicians in DC people who

298
00:14:19,762 --> 00:14:21,452
become really wealthy,

299
00:14:21,452 --> 00:14:23,502
being close to the system.

300
00:14:23,502 --> 00:14:27,173
People who could care less about being a part of

301
00:14:27,250 --> 00:14:32,144
a complete displacement of large numbers of African Americans in

302
00:14:32,221 --> 00:14:34,133
the District of Columbia,

303
00:14:34,133 --> 00:14:37,778
so long as they're getting a cut of the action.

304
00:14:37,778 --> 00:14:40,512
And people who will participate in,

305
00:14:40,512 --> 00:14:44,840
you know, owning slumlord establishments that are just a.

306
00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:49,176
A road on the pathway to this massive displacement that's

307
00:14:49,252 --> 00:14:53,131
going on in the District of Columbia that drives me

308
00:14:53,207 --> 00:14:58,151
having a program like restorative justice in our criminal section

309
00:14:58,151 --> 00:15:00,798
at the office of attorney general,

310
00:15:00,798 --> 00:15:05,515
which is the only restorative justice program in a prosecutors

311
00:15:05,591 --> 00:15:09,395
office in the country where we give the victim the

312
00:15:09,471 --> 00:15:13,579
keys to justice and the victim and the perpetrator get

313
00:15:13,579 --> 00:15:16,409
together with supporters. Be at faith,

314
00:15:16,409 --> 00:15:20,277
folks, family friends would have you to try to figure

315
00:15:20,350 --> 00:15:23,270
out what the hell brought them together.

316
00:15:23,270 --> 00:15:26,375
Why did the culprit do what he or she did,

317
00:15:26,375 --> 00:15:29,456
and how can we get to a place where that

318
00:15:29,533 --> 00:15:34,540
right is wrong without engagement of the criminal justice system?

319
00:15:34,540 --> 00:15:37,819
You know, having the chance to innovate in that kind

320
00:15:37,882 --> 00:15:41,099
of way again with just in really talented team that

321
00:15:41,162 --> 00:15:44,126
gets me up every single morning and then we not

322
00:15:44,126 --> 00:15:46,194
even gone to the national stuff.

323
00:15:46,194 --> 00:15:48,137
But as an immigrant, you know,

324
00:15:48,137 --> 00:15:52,100
Haitian American came here when I was three years old.

325
00:15:52,100 --> 00:15:55,986
Uhm, I know the worth in worthiness of immigrants.

326
00:15:55,986 --> 00:16:00,548
I also know that every single American is the grandson

327
00:16:00,632 --> 00:16:03,420
or granddaughter of an immigrant.

328
00:16:03,420 --> 00:16:07,016
A man, why are we acting now like immigrants,

329
00:16:07,016 --> 00:16:10,221
especially Brown and black? A man folks,

330
00:16:10,221 --> 00:16:13,839
uh, you know Muslim faith you know are evil so

331
00:16:13,917 --> 00:16:17,771
I love getting up every day and fighting the hate

332
00:16:17,850 --> 00:16:23,119
that Permeates 1600 Pennsylvania in the Personhood of Donald Trump.

333
00:16:23,119 --> 00:16:25,699
Well, let me ask you about that,

334
00:16:25,699 --> 00:16:31,014
Karl, because that's obviously you probably get more questions about

335
00:16:31,093 --> 00:16:34,610
litigation and the way you have have engaged.

336
00:16:34,610 --> 00:16:37,941
Donald Trump, in an as you talk about the animals,

337
00:16:37,941 --> 00:16:41,582
the the, the hate that pervades really the whole system

338
00:16:41,648 --> 00:16:42,773
in some ways now,

339
00:16:42,773 --> 00:16:46,199
but it's really embody and maybe Trump's more just a

340
00:16:46,264 --> 00:16:50,283
Messenger than anything of what's going on on national level.

341
00:16:50,283 --> 00:16:53,082
But I've known you for I think it's now 35

342
00:16:53,148 --> 00:16:53,548
years.

343
00:16:53,548 --> 00:16:56,576
And as I've known you in your jobs and you

344
00:16:56,648 --> 00:16:59,820
worked at the public defender service in DC.

345
00:16:59,820 --> 00:17:03,794
I've seen that what animates you is helping vulnerable people,

346
00:17:03,794 --> 00:17:07,044
and I've also seen what animates you is you're very

347
00:17:07,108 --> 00:17:10,040
competitive person and you don't like bullies,

348
00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,879
and that's always been my experience of you,

349
00:17:12,879 --> 00:17:16,190
and I've seen you stand up for people throughout the

350
00:17:16,254 --> 00:17:19,310
years and all kinds of different ways is some of

351
00:17:19,374 --> 00:17:19,692
that.

352
00:17:19,692 --> 00:17:23,540
What animates the litigation right now against the abuse is,

353
00:17:23,540 --> 00:17:24,802
as you refer to it,

354
00:17:24,802 --> 00:17:28,397
1600 Pennsylvania, absolutely Jeff, and you describe me.

355
00:17:28,397 --> 00:17:30,290
Well, there is somebody who's.

356
00:17:30,290 --> 00:17:33,138
You know, we've known each other very,

357
00:17:33,138 --> 00:17:36,997
very very well as young men you know developing into

358
00:17:37,071 --> 00:17:37,813
adulthood,

359
00:17:37,813 --> 00:17:41,173
not knowing where the hell were gonna end up.

360
00:17:41,173 --> 00:17:43,875
But, uh, but the fact of the matter.

361
00:17:43,875 --> 00:17:47,699
Is there something wrong with the bully who picks on

362
00:17:47,772 --> 00:17:51,302
people and who finds a way to reward a colleague

363
00:17:51,375 --> 00:17:54,758
of deputy bullies in a way that their loyal to

364
00:17:54,758 --> 00:17:58,523
him? Um and so with this president is done is

365
00:17:58,607 --> 00:18:03,459
he has really gone just underneath the surface of American

366
00:18:03,543 --> 00:18:04,212
culture,

367
00:18:04,212 --> 00:18:08,200
and he quite recognizes that we are still raw from

368
00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:12,428
our history with slavery that we're still a country.

369
00:18:12,428 --> 00:18:15,430
You know, notwithstanding our wealth,

370
00:18:15,430 --> 00:18:18,195
where people don't have, you know,

371
00:18:18,195 --> 00:18:23,331
a great global sense and understanding that people from elsewhere

372
00:18:23,410 --> 00:18:25,780
or more like us than they are.

373
00:18:25,780 --> 00:18:29,637
Different from us and he's found a way to his,

374
00:18:29,637 --> 00:18:34,384
Bob said to weaponize those differences to the benefit of

375
00:18:34,467 --> 00:18:35,383
one person.

376
00:18:35,383 --> 00:18:38,419
And that's, uh, that's Donald Trump.

377
00:18:38,419 --> 00:18:42,185
So yeah, he is. He's the biggest bully of the

378
00:18:42,269 --> 00:18:42,687
mall.

379
00:18:42,687 --> 00:18:46,789
But it comes into the law because he also is

380
00:18:46,882 --> 00:18:49,120
a consistent lawbreaker.

381
00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:51,614
Uhm, you know we found the suit.

382
00:18:51,614 --> 00:18:55,520
It's a crazy crazy name the emoluments case.

383
00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,116
Now the emoluments is in the constitution.

384
00:18:58,116 --> 00:19:01,195
No one ever knew what the hell the emoluments was.

385
00:19:01,195 --> 00:19:03,490
They didn't teach that in law school.

386
00:19:03,490 --> 00:19:05,180
We all took on law so did I.

387
00:19:05,180 --> 00:19:08,328
Pronouncing it yeah yeah yeah we work.

388
00:19:08,328 --> 00:19:11,390
We practiced it. Half an hour on that before we

389
00:19:11,455 --> 00:19:12,172
go on girl,

390
00:19:12,172 --> 00:19:15,132
exactly, you know, but the whole deal is that you

391
00:19:15,193 --> 00:19:15,495
know,

392
00:19:15,495 --> 00:19:18,699
like Alexander Hamilton. Remember Alexander Hamilton,

393
00:19:18,699 --> 00:19:21,251
Alexander Hamilton himself said, look man,

394
00:19:21,251 --> 00:19:24,820
there can be no greater wrong to this Republic.

395
00:19:24,820 --> 00:19:28,142
Uh, if we allow a public official like the president

396
00:19:28,206 --> 00:19:30,825
to receive monies from foreign countries,

397
00:19:30,825 --> 00:19:34,291
then there gonna be thinking not about what's good for

398
00:19:34,355 --> 00:19:35,061
the people,

399
00:19:35,061 --> 00:19:36,894
but what's good for himself,

400
00:19:36,894 --> 00:19:40,605
the president. And that's what President Trump is doing at

401
00:19:40,669 --> 00:19:42,077
the Trump Hotel in DC.

402
00:19:42,077 --> 00:19:45,048
That's why the Attorney General from Maryland,

403
00:19:45,048 --> 00:19:47,450
Brian Frosh, can I Sue the president.

404
00:19:47,450 --> 00:19:50,295
That's why we won in federal District Court.

405
00:19:50,295 --> 00:19:52,571
Our case was allowed to go forward.

406
00:19:52,571 --> 00:19:54,404
We have 38 active subpoenas.

407
00:19:54,404 --> 00:19:56,490
The 4th Circuit Court of Appeals.

408
00:19:56,490 --> 00:20:00,181
3 judge panel. Very conservative group laugh this out of

409
00:20:00,246 --> 00:20:01,894
court dismissed our case.

410
00:20:01,894 --> 00:20:05,512
We appealed it before the entire four circuit panel and

411
00:20:05,577 --> 00:20:08,340
just last week on a 9 to 6 decisive basis,

412
00:20:08,340 --> 00:20:11,972
they found that the emoluments clause is not with Trump

413
00:20:12,038 --> 00:20:12,963
said is phony.

414
00:20:12,963 --> 00:20:15,567
It's real Amman. So our case continues.

415
00:20:15,567 --> 00:20:19,983
This president is looking to profit from the presidency and

416
00:20:20,057 --> 00:20:21,180
that's illegal.

417
00:20:21,180 --> 00:20:25,710
Whatever different question about that 'cause it's it's a more

418
00:20:25,783 --> 00:20:27,098
personal question.

419
00:20:27,098 --> 00:20:30,960
Given that Mr. Trump has used the state apparatus and

420
00:20:31,033 --> 00:20:34,531
he is given his his conduct before the election,

421
00:20:34,531 --> 00:20:38,750
given his conduct that led to impeachment given his firing

422
00:20:38,822 --> 00:20:43,114
of the inspector generals and given his behavior across the

423
00:20:43,187 --> 00:20:43,623
board,

424
00:20:43,623 --> 00:20:48,999
Have you ever been personally concerned about threats from him

425
00:20:49,086 --> 00:20:50,300
or his people?

426
00:20:50,300 --> 00:20:53,751
You know, uhm, I think I guess the answer is

427
00:20:53,830 --> 00:20:54,065
no.

428
00:20:54,065 --> 00:20:56,447
A man. I think it's because I,

429
00:20:56,447 --> 00:20:59,674
you know, I have some semblance of faith.

430
00:20:59,674 --> 00:21:02,517
You know, from family, spirituality,

431
00:21:02,517 --> 00:21:06,801
and also religion. and I subscribe to a little vignette

432
00:21:06,879 --> 00:21:08,203
in Julius Caesar.

433
00:21:08,203 --> 00:21:13,265
Shakespeare talked about that cowards die many times before their

434
00:21:13,343 --> 00:21:13,888
deaths.

435
00:21:13,888 --> 00:21:16,501
The Valiant never taste of death,

436
00:21:16,501 --> 00:21:20,419
but once seems strange that men should fear death.

437
00:21:20,419 --> 00:21:24,360
Unnecessary end will come when it will come.

438
00:21:24,360 --> 00:21:27,282
So I don't worry about that other stuff.

439
00:21:27,282 --> 00:21:30,916
Um, and I don't read the comments in the articles.

440
00:21:30,916 --> 00:21:33,624
That's where the real Crazies appear.

441
00:21:33,624 --> 00:21:36,189
Let me share one vignette with you.

442
00:21:36,189 --> 00:21:38,540
I interacted with the president.

443
00:21:38,540 --> 00:21:42,673
I've actually been over to the White House several times.

444
00:21:42,673 --> 00:21:46,165
You know, at his and other people's invitations,

445
00:21:46,165 --> 00:21:48,232
and he has an unusual charm.

446
00:21:48,232 --> 00:21:51,509
Uhm, it's very different from a Bill Clinton.

447
00:21:51,509 --> 00:21:53,433
I worked for Bill Clinton.

448
00:21:53,433 --> 00:21:56,640
Bill Clinton's charm was really based on his.

449
00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:00,295
Kind of like you to wanting to get to know

450
00:22:00,382 --> 00:22:04,733
you and giving you getting you to really feel that

451
00:22:04,820 --> 00:22:07,170
your story mattered to him.

452
00:22:07,170 --> 00:22:10,890
President Trump's charm is completely opposite.

453
00:22:10,890 --> 00:22:15,601
It's all trump coming at you where he is just

454
00:22:15,706 --> 00:22:19,370
talking about himself right at you.

455
00:22:19,370 --> 00:22:21,671
Uhm, but I gotta tell you,

456
00:22:21,671 --> 00:22:25,447
I did sense a charismatic air and I see that

457
00:22:25,533 --> 00:22:29,738
people you know tend to follow that he once tried

458
00:22:29,824 --> 00:22:34,115
to Ingratiate himself with me at an event where he

459
00:22:34,115 --> 00:22:38,390
called me out and thanked me for something.

460
00:22:38,390 --> 00:22:40,861
A man claimed to actually have no.

461
00:22:40,861 --> 00:22:43,685
Hey Karl, I feel like I know you is what

462
00:22:43,755 --> 00:22:44,320
he said.

463
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,236
I stood up and I wish I had a subpoena,

464
00:22:47,236 --> 00:22:49,744
but I stood up and I and I did see

465
00:22:49,818 --> 00:22:52,916
us a Secret Service Stand Up as well and I

466
00:22:52,990 --> 00:22:53,359
said,

467
00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:55,474
Sir, I think I know you too.

468
00:22:55,474 --> 00:22:57,588
and I do know the president.

469
00:22:57,588 --> 00:23:00,066
The president is a self centered.

470
00:23:00,066 --> 00:23:04,505
Honestly, I think maniacal leader who is OK with hurting

471
00:23:04,585 --> 00:23:07,280
people so long it as it helps him.

472
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,157
Right, he seems that, well,

473
00:23:09,157 --> 00:23:14,162
there's some obviously psychological issues that others have dissected who

474
00:23:14,230 --> 00:23:16,732
are far more credentials than we are.

475
00:23:16,732 --> 00:23:19,799
We talk about that, but it's but I think it's

476
00:23:19,867 --> 00:23:20,821
a great point.

477
00:23:20,821 --> 00:23:23,838
He is very charismatic and he's very shrewd,

478
00:23:23,838 --> 00:23:26,587
and it makes some it now he is no dummy,

479
00:23:26,587 --> 00:23:29,725
despite what some of the folks in the left say

480
00:23:29,793 --> 00:23:30,475
about him.

481
00:23:30,475 --> 00:23:33,607
I want to pivot to something you said you work

482
00:23:33,675 --> 00:23:34,832
for Bill Clinton.

483
00:23:34,832 --> 00:23:36,910
Now you're one of his lawyers.

484
00:23:36,910 --> 00:23:40,956
Back in the time. Where he was going through impeachment?

485
00:23:40,956 --> 00:23:44,370
That right? That's right, I got there in 1997.

486
00:23:44,370 --> 00:23:46,694
Mutual friend of ours hired me,

487
00:23:46,694 --> 00:23:50,492
miss Cheryl Mills, one of the best lawyers I've ever

488
00:23:50,565 --> 00:23:54,436
worked with and I was on the investigative team there

489
00:23:54,509 --> 00:24:00,060
defending the White House and Cabinet officials from investigation inquiries

490
00:24:00,060 --> 00:24:04,664
from Congress as well as a number of independent counsel

491
00:24:04,747 --> 00:24:05,980
who were there.

492
00:24:05,980 --> 00:24:10,290
What was that like for you to work?

493
00:24:10,290 --> 00:24:14,336
Through in the White House 24/7 media coverage.

494
00:24:14,336 --> 00:24:18,640
At a time when president was being impeached.

495
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,567
What was that like for you?

496
00:24:20,567 --> 00:24:23,686
What did you learn from that and what did you

497
00:24:23,755 --> 00:24:28,122
learn from from being around such superstar lawyers like Cheryl

498
00:24:28,191 --> 00:24:30,548
Mills or chakra for Bruce Lindsey?

499
00:24:30,548 --> 00:24:33,507
You know the story of my life as a lawyer.

500
00:24:33,507 --> 00:24:36,455
I know you all get into this in your great

501
00:24:36,525 --> 00:24:37,087
podcast.

502
00:24:37,087 --> 00:24:40,961
Is that I've just been extremely fortunate and have been

503
00:24:41,031 --> 00:24:45,804
somewhat intentional about bonding with the most talented lawyers who

504
00:24:45,873 --> 00:24:48,710
were really passionate about their craft.

505
00:24:48,710 --> 00:24:50,714
And so I've had men towards,

506
00:24:50,714 --> 00:24:54,377
you know, from my first ended Venable Ben Civiletti,

507
00:24:54,377 --> 00:24:58,040
a former US attorney general under President Carter,

508
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,321
a judge named Judge Amy Jackson,

509
00:25:00,321 --> 00:25:03,976
you know, really took me under their wings there and

510
00:25:04,047 --> 00:25:04,398
then.

511
00:25:04,398 --> 00:25:08,601
Similarly, Chuck rough is a legendary lawyer in the District

512
00:25:08,671 --> 00:25:09,512
of Columbia,

513
00:25:09,512 --> 00:25:11,447
who died an untimely death.

514
00:25:11,447 --> 00:25:13,521
And people like Cheryl Mills.

515
00:25:13,521 --> 00:25:17,184
what I learned over the White House was my goodness,

516
00:25:17,184 --> 00:25:21,190
man. There's so much that's not in your control.

517
00:25:21,190 --> 00:25:24,424
That all you can do as a as a lawyer

518
00:25:24,514 --> 00:25:28,468
is to try to Marshall as many facts you know

519
00:25:28,557 --> 00:25:31,702
that that are that make your point.

520
00:25:31,702 --> 00:25:35,622
Uhm, as possible to be sanguine on the law,

521
00:25:35,622 --> 00:25:39,841
but that both the media and the forces who were

522
00:25:39,931 --> 00:25:43,881
opposed against you have a lot to say in how

523
00:25:43,971 --> 00:25:47,292
a particular problem gets played out.

524
00:25:47,292 --> 00:25:51,123
I remember, for example, participating in,

525
00:25:51,123 --> 00:25:53,702
uh? A matter where I had to kind of I'll

526
00:25:53,766 --> 00:25:54,604
Salica story,

527
00:25:54,604 --> 00:25:57,921
um, regarding the first lady A2 allowed to the press

528
00:25:57,984 --> 00:25:59,834
and it was not going to be a,

529
00:25:59,834 --> 00:26:02,165
you know, an overly favorable story.

530
00:26:02,165 --> 00:26:03,803
There was some, you know,

531
00:26:03,803 --> 00:26:06,744
some bad news there. So you have to present it

532
00:26:06,808 --> 00:26:08,214
in a in a factual way.

533
00:26:08,214 --> 00:26:10,975
But there was also a part of the story that

534
00:26:11,039 --> 00:26:11,617
was very,

535
00:26:11,617 --> 00:26:15,955
very beneficial and supportive of the first Ladies Ethics and

536
00:26:16,026 --> 00:26:17,590
so that's what we did.

537
00:26:17,590 --> 00:26:21,026
Uhm, I remember her not being so happy with the

538
00:26:21,099 --> 00:26:22,780
way the story came out.

539
00:26:22,780 --> 00:26:26,827
And I remember having a very difficult conversation with her.

540
00:26:26,827 --> 00:26:28,720
I guess I was the recipient.

541
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,200
I didn't say much in the conversation.

542
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,928
And I remember saying Jesus man,

543
00:26:34,928 --> 00:26:38,430
is it over yet then I remember.

544
00:26:38,430 --> 00:26:41,941
For another half an hour and then finally it was

545
00:26:42,014 --> 00:26:42,380
over.

546
00:26:42,380 --> 00:26:44,514
And I remember saying jeez man,

547
00:26:44,514 --> 00:26:48,146
this stuff is really personal so politics can get real

548
00:26:48,213 --> 00:26:51,912
personal at work in the White House is an extraordinary

549
00:26:51,979 --> 00:26:52,719
experience.

550
00:26:52,719 --> 00:26:55,549
I gotta tell you cause me to take about 18

551
00:26:55,617 --> 00:26:59,256
month break from the law because it was all consuming.

552
00:26:59,256 --> 00:27:03,387
The stakes were incredibly high and every single person in

553
00:27:03,458 --> 00:27:06,734
that White House I thought was on the verge of

554
00:27:06,806 --> 00:27:08,230
a nervous breakdown.

555
00:27:08,230 --> 00:27:11,950
Karl, um. During that answer you talked about what I

556
00:27:12,022 --> 00:27:13,739
perceived to be control,

557
00:27:13,739 --> 00:27:15,717
which is where all lawyers,

558
00:27:15,717 --> 00:27:17,835
uh, like often revert to you.

559
00:27:17,835 --> 00:27:19,389
Got to be in control.

560
00:27:19,389 --> 00:27:22,285
Everything versus flow, get into a flow,

561
00:27:22,285 --> 00:27:26,188
can you? Can you talk to lawyers out there?

562
00:27:26,188 --> 00:27:28,728
Is there a way to to teach that or to

563
00:27:28,796 --> 00:27:31,748
let them in on 'cause you flow like you you

564
00:27:31,817 --> 00:27:32,709
get in spots,

565
00:27:32,709 --> 00:27:34,747
but your career is a flow an.

566
00:27:34,747 --> 00:27:37,746
Is there a way to to teach that or share

567
00:27:37,821 --> 00:27:40,820
some kind of secret sauce that you have?

568
00:27:40,820 --> 00:27:44,850
I mean, I'm constantly trying to find out where the

569
00:27:44,930 --> 00:27:46,194
secret sauce is.

570
00:27:46,194 --> 00:27:49,711
Uhm, and, uh, you know at times you know I

571
00:27:49,795 --> 00:27:53,480
felt like there has been a pretty good flow.

572
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,430
And I just think that the you know the key.

573
00:27:56,430 --> 00:28:00,836
Steps towards getting that flow is just an immense amount

574
00:28:00,913 --> 00:28:03,155
of hard work and preparation.

575
00:28:03,155 --> 00:28:06,212
You know how hard you work for a trial?

576
00:28:06,212 --> 00:28:10,227
You know you're up. God knows how many nights before

577
00:28:10,304 --> 00:28:13,701
you're you know you're you're doing a trial.

578
00:28:13,701 --> 00:28:18,100
You know every single document you know what every single

579
00:28:18,177 --> 00:28:21,419
witnesses said so that a slight variation.

580
00:28:21,419 --> 00:28:23,788
You can figure it out tonally,

581
00:28:23,788 --> 00:28:26,998
and then use that thing and then ban you.

582
00:28:26,998 --> 00:28:30,649
Just won the truck. And so I would say that

583
00:28:30,734 --> 00:28:35,150
the first characteristic of a flow is just a massive

584
00:28:35,235 --> 00:28:38,292
amount of preparation and hard work.

585
00:28:38,292 --> 00:28:42,828
Then you gotta just kind of get yourself into like

586
00:28:42,918 --> 00:28:47,726
a game mode where you're relaxed enough to allow your

587
00:28:47,817 --> 00:28:50,720
instincts to actually take over.

588
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,175
And you see this often times in politics and I'm

589
00:28:54,246 --> 00:28:55,398
new to politics,

590
00:28:55,398 --> 00:28:58,332
but I know I'm at my best when I'm calm

591
00:28:58,407 --> 00:29:02,470
and my instincts are just taking over and working with

592
00:29:02,545 --> 00:29:05,780
the preparation that has a curd beforehand.

593
00:29:05,780 --> 00:29:08,082
So I think that's what it is.

594
00:29:08,082 --> 00:29:10,153
It's a lot of preparation.

595
00:29:10,153 --> 00:29:14,708
Its confidence in your authenticity that allows you to play

596
00:29:14,785 --> 00:29:19,030
your instincts at the moment where you're just the most

597
00:29:19,108 --> 00:29:22,813
credible and authoritative authoritative person,

598
00:29:22,813 --> 00:29:26,318
either in the court room or you know on a

599
00:29:26,404 --> 00:29:28,370
candidate debate stage.

600
00:29:28,370 --> 00:29:31,123
Not call. Is this something you learned?

601
00:29:31,123 --> 00:29:33,998
Some of those folks at home I may not read

602
00:29:34,067 --> 00:29:34,683
your bio.

603
00:29:34,683 --> 00:29:38,376
Don't know that you are a very good basketball player,

604
00:29:38,376 --> 00:29:41,465
except for the fact that you were slow and you

605
00:29:41,533 --> 00:29:42,540
couldn't shoot.

606
00:29:42,540 --> 00:29:46,230
Other than that, that's a problem.

607
00:29:46,230 --> 00:29:48,644
The King of slow on the gorgeous country,

608
00:29:48,644 --> 00:29:50,885
slow Karl. Other than that you are no.

609
00:29:50,885 --> 00:29:53,873
But seriously, you are very good basketball player.

610
00:29:53,873 --> 00:29:55,820
You played in the in the.

611
00:29:55,820 --> 00:29:57,561
In a probably a USB L,

612
00:29:57,561 --> 00:30:01,344
after you went in Japan right after you came out,

613
00:30:01,344 --> 00:30:04,220
then you play with a great Manu Bowl.

614
00:30:04,220 --> 00:30:06,490
As I recall, he's a good man,

615
00:30:06,490 --> 00:30:09,366
picked it up. You'll appreciate this.

616
00:30:09,366 --> 00:30:11,636
Yeah, and Bob Jeff is 6 foot.

617
00:30:11,636 --> 00:30:16,235
Four thinks he's 66. That's a damn lie.

618
00:30:16,235 --> 00:30:20,516
I'm 65 and 3/4. That's why he's got those high

619
00:30:20,609 --> 00:30:21,260
waters.

620
00:30:21,260 --> 00:30:24,581
He's wearing pants, you know there are Manu Bowl,

621
00:30:24,581 --> 00:30:26,440
not me, we're talking about.

622
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,538
Oh man, I went to pick him up one morning.

623
00:30:29,538 --> 00:30:30,906
I think is in, uh,

624
00:30:30,906 --> 00:30:33,952
in Wildwood NJ for a uh like a press thing

625
00:30:34,025 --> 00:30:38,086
everybody was like focused on my Newton Spud Webb played

626
00:30:38,158 --> 00:30:41,712
in that summer League as well and he was supposed

627
00:30:41,712 --> 00:30:44,377
to be ready at the hotel at 7:00 AM.

628
00:30:44,377 --> 00:30:46,927
He was not so I went up to the room

629
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,059
and I banged on the door and man he opened

630
00:30:50,132 --> 00:30:50,788
the door.

631
00:30:50,788 --> 00:30:53,093
He had, you know his half clad.

632
00:30:53,093 --> 00:30:54,770
He looks down at Maine.

633
00:30:54,770 --> 00:30:58,596
I'm literally like 3 feet shorter than the guy he

634
00:30:58,674 --> 00:31:00,392
looks down and I said,

635
00:31:00,392 --> 00:31:04,320
hey, I said good morning and he goes good morning.

636
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,303
I have never felt a more powerful stream of morning

637
00:31:08,381 --> 00:31:09,865
breath coming down.

638
00:31:09,865 --> 00:31:12,560
Remember you telling me this story?

639
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:14,936
That USBLI there was a team in Wildwood,

640
00:31:14,936 --> 00:31:17,313
NJ right at the Convention Center there.

641
00:31:17,313 --> 00:31:20,303
Wow, what Aces. Brother Question I have to call you

642
00:31:20,361 --> 00:31:22,413
an other quick story you played in.

643
00:31:22,413 --> 00:31:24,326
I think I've got the name right.

644
00:31:24,326 --> 00:31:26,760
What's the Capital Classic it used to be?

645
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,516
All Stars from DC who played All Stars from the

646
00:31:29,574 --> 00:31:31,802
rest of the world I guess the country.

647
00:31:31,802 --> 00:31:34,932
Well, yeah, so yeah, there's eight All Stars from DC.

648
00:31:34,932 --> 00:31:37,679
Then we would take at least two of the national

649
00:31:37,737 --> 00:31:40,718
stars and then we'd play against another team of 12

650
00:31:40,777 --> 00:31:41,887
National All Stars.

651
00:31:41,887 --> 00:31:43,510
Patrick Ewing is on my team.

652
00:31:43,510 --> 00:31:45,606
Michael Jordan on the other team.

653
00:31:45,606 --> 00:31:48,556
So what was it like to interact real quick with

654
00:31:48,619 --> 00:31:49,058
Jordan?

655
00:31:49,058 --> 00:31:50,475
Was he like back then?

656
00:31:50,475 --> 00:31:51,831
I gotta tell you man,

657
00:31:51,831 --> 00:31:53,557
he was a perfect gentleman.

658
00:31:53,557 --> 00:31:56,331
Number one. He was not a bragard number two.

659
00:31:56,331 --> 00:31:59,352
He was actually quite shy in Group environments.

660
00:31:59,352 --> 00:32:02,154
You had a whole bunch of Alpha guys there and

661
00:32:02,216 --> 00:32:05,516
Jordans number one guy was a guy named Buzz Peterson.

662
00:32:05,516 --> 00:32:07,426
His buddy from North Carolina.

663
00:32:07,426 --> 00:32:09,954
Buzz as it turned out white guy a guard.

664
00:32:09,954 --> 00:32:11,556
He was Mr North Carolina.

665
00:32:11,556 --> 00:32:13,590
Michael was a runner up to buzz.

666
00:32:13,590 --> 00:32:16,611
Michael was so much better than buzz as crazy but

667
00:32:16,672 --> 00:32:18,460
buzz was a great storyteller.

668
00:32:18,460 --> 00:32:21,369
And Mike used to be with buzz and basically be

669
00:32:21,432 --> 00:32:22,254
his number 2.

670
00:32:22,254 --> 00:32:25,665
The one thing I remember about an interaction during a

671
00:32:25,728 --> 00:32:26,297
practice,

672
00:32:26,297 --> 00:32:29,491
the practices were the best was that I was happened

673
00:32:29,554 --> 00:32:32,309
to be on his team and we would scrimmage and

674
00:32:32,372 --> 00:32:35,190
it keeps score and it was a third quarter and

675
00:32:35,190 --> 00:32:36,910
we were down by 8.

676
00:32:36,910 --> 00:32:40,023
And he pulled me over and he said something that

677
00:32:40,088 --> 00:32:42,942
I should have listened to my entire careeer.

678
00:32:42,942 --> 00:32:44,867
He said, hey Man, I said yes,

679
00:32:44,867 --> 00:32:48,163
he said you going into the Lane and everybody knows

680
00:32:48,228 --> 00:32:51,007
you're gonna pass the ball you got to go in

681
00:32:51,071 --> 00:32:54,044
there and shoot that thing man I don't care if

682
00:32:54,044 --> 00:32:56,695
you miss it just shoot it and then we all

683
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,411
gonna be open and let me tell you we were

684
00:32:59,476 --> 00:33:02,450
down there we won by 20 that game because sure

685
00:33:02,450 --> 00:33:05,017
enough man I went on a shooting tirade.

686
00:33:05,017 --> 00:33:07,360
Missed a lot of those jobs.

687
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,386
Ascensions I remember playing ball with you,

688
00:33:10,386 --> 00:33:13,278
you would you would to your own detriment,

689
00:33:13,278 --> 00:33:16,169
not pass sometimes. So the question I had,

690
00:33:16,169 --> 00:33:18,523
you know, through this meandering,

691
00:33:18,523 --> 00:33:21,404
interesting. If town basketball, memory land,

692
00:33:21,404 --> 00:33:23,289
which I love is what did you?

693
00:33:23,289 --> 00:33:26,180
What did you? There's one lesson from sports.

694
00:33:26,180 --> 00:33:27,940
What is some other lessons?

695
00:33:27,940 --> 00:33:31,167
Because the flow question Bob asks you remind me of

696
00:33:31,230 --> 00:33:34,267
this and I'm always trying to get my people that

697
00:33:34,330 --> 00:33:37,367
in my law firm to bring out their own potential.

698
00:33:37,367 --> 00:33:40,800
What did you learn from sports that you could transmit

699
00:33:40,864 --> 00:33:42,835
to folks that you're mentoring?

700
00:33:42,835 --> 00:33:46,018
I mean, for Maine, I think there's so many lessons

701
00:33:46,081 --> 00:33:47,800
just to the big one for me.

702
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:49,560
Is that you get much better.

703
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,300
Results if you pass the ball.

704
00:33:52,300 --> 00:33:55,747
Uh, I had a coach who used to celebrate the

705
00:33:55,827 --> 00:33:56,709
assist man.

706
00:33:56,709 --> 00:34:00,291
This is a coach in 8th grade where the person

707
00:34:00,370 --> 00:34:03,952
who made the pass literally got all the hugs,

708
00:34:03,952 --> 00:34:07,889
got them extra burger at McDonald's and what not.

709
00:34:07,889 --> 00:34:13,074
and I just think that especially in highly competitive businesses

710
00:34:13,153 --> 00:34:13,951
like ours,

711
00:34:13,951 --> 00:34:19,530
we oftentimes think that being selfish is what's most rewarding.

712
00:34:19,530 --> 00:34:21,646
I'm in my experience, it's not.

713
00:34:21,646 --> 00:34:25,481
It's the past. The willingness to play with other people,

714
00:34:25,481 --> 00:34:28,854
the willingness to put you talking about teamwork,

715
00:34:28,854 --> 00:34:33,620
teamwork, teamwork. A team always beats an individual,

716
00:34:33,620 --> 00:34:35,311
uh, in a uh in again,

717
00:34:35,311 --> 00:34:39,429
you never rarely is it that one person defeats the

718
00:34:39,511 --> 00:34:44,535
team and sometimes a well coached and well disciplined teamed

719
00:34:44,617 --> 00:34:47,170
beats a far more talented team.

720
00:34:47,170 --> 00:34:54,310
Karl. I identify through this this whole conversation is.

721
00:34:54,310 --> 00:35:04,210
You, um, you thrive on a passion competition challenge so.

722
00:35:04,210 --> 00:35:06,924
If you could talk to like law students,

723
00:35:06,924 --> 00:35:10,972
young lawyers that have found their way into the profession

724
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,167
and aren't feeling any of that,

725
00:35:13,167 --> 00:35:16,510
but they want to find it in the law.

726
00:35:16,510 --> 00:35:18,456
Knock, knock go outside of it.

727
00:35:18,456 --> 00:35:21,029
What you know? How do you tap into that?

728
00:35:21,029 --> 00:35:23,602
How do they tap? How do I tap into that?

729
00:35:23,602 --> 00:35:26,913
You know, if they're not finding it and what they're

730
00:35:26,976 --> 00:35:27,995
doing 9 to 5 uh,

731
00:35:27,995 --> 00:35:30,903
then I feel like you know you've got to figure

732
00:35:30,966 --> 00:35:33,748
out a way for them to have a different legal

733
00:35:33,811 --> 00:35:36,656
experience with maybe another set of clients.

734
00:35:36,656 --> 00:35:38,287
Might be a pro bono case.

735
00:35:38,287 --> 00:35:40,359
Might be a court appointed case.

736
00:35:40,359 --> 00:35:42,806
Might have nothing to do with the law.

737
00:35:42,806 --> 00:35:44,689
Might be mentoring, you know,

738
00:35:44,689 --> 00:35:46,760
some kids at a juvenile facility.

739
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,253
You gotta try to find who you are,

740
00:35:49,253 --> 00:35:53,148
what makes you smile, what makes your heart smile will

741
00:35:53,220 --> 00:35:55,095
get you up in the morning.

742
00:35:55,095 --> 00:35:58,198
Then you gotta try to bring as much of that

743
00:35:58,270 --> 00:36:00,652
to your nine to five as possible.

744
00:36:00,652 --> 00:36:04,249
Then you have a chance to be a really happy

745
00:36:04,332 --> 00:36:07,260
human being at work and successful.

746
00:36:07,260 --> 00:36:11,040
So the question for your around that.

747
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,624
So, So what you're talking about is,

748
00:36:13,624 --> 00:36:17,571
you know we're talking about self actualising in the law

749
00:36:17,641 --> 00:36:21,165
and how folks really maximize their own potential,

750
00:36:21,165 --> 00:36:24,308
their own magic, and part of this is vision.

751
00:36:24,308 --> 00:36:26,822
You talked about what got you into.

752
00:36:26,822 --> 00:36:30,383
You went to law school really to help other folks.

753
00:36:30,383 --> 00:36:33,506
And that was my vision myself of what got me

754
00:36:33,577 --> 00:36:34,713
into law school.

755
00:36:34,713 --> 00:36:38,329
And it's evolved. Do you recall your vision of more

756
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:39,322
specifically,

757
00:36:39,322 --> 00:36:42,604
what got you interested in the law and how that

758
00:36:42,674 --> 00:36:44,070
is evolved to today?

759
00:36:44,070 --> 00:36:46,510
And what's your vision today for yourself?

760
00:36:46,510 --> 00:36:49,764
You know, I think for me what got me interested

761
00:36:49,833 --> 00:36:52,879
in the law was just reading at Penn and then

762
00:36:52,948 --> 00:36:56,686
you obviously in high school but more in college about

763
00:36:56,686 --> 00:37:00,091
you know the role of the civil rights leaders and

764
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,218
the role that they played in developing law.

765
00:37:03,218 --> 00:37:05,900
That would lead to integration.

766
00:37:05,900 --> 00:37:08,373
Also, as a Haitian American,

767
00:37:08,373 --> 00:37:11,737
I saw first hand the role of law in the

768
00:37:11,823 --> 00:37:15,877
massive deportations of of Haitians in the 80s,

769
00:37:15,877 --> 00:37:20,012
and so I would say that both those histories and

770
00:37:20,099 --> 00:37:24,320
experiences you know kind of crystallized for me,

771
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:26,878
where my sweet spot would be.

772
00:37:26,878 --> 00:37:32,668
There's Charles Hamilton Houston. You went to Howard University Law

773
00:37:32,754 --> 00:37:33,359
School.

774
00:37:33,359 --> 00:37:36,600
Charles Hamilton Houston talked about.

775
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,718
Using the law as a tool to fight for people

776
00:37:39,791 --> 00:37:42,039
who can't fight for themselves,

777
00:37:42,039 --> 00:37:45,340
and I think there's a lot of power in that

778
00:37:45,418 --> 00:37:48,090
if that's part of your own spirit.

779
00:37:48,090 --> 00:37:50,216
And it is part of my spirit.

780
00:37:50,216 --> 00:37:52,268
So absolutely yeah. I mean,

781
00:37:52,268 --> 00:37:55,350
you're talking about, you know.

782
00:37:55,350 --> 00:38:00,471
Taken connecting to your passion and then actualising it in

783
00:38:00,558 --> 00:38:02,467
what you do every day.

784
00:38:02,467 --> 00:38:07,183
You are the incoming. You're the president elect of the

785
00:38:07,269 --> 00:38:10,870
National Association of attorneys general.

786
00:38:10,870 --> 00:38:12,789
A, you know a fairly,

787
00:38:12,789 --> 00:38:16,975
uh, uh, you know kind of mainstream in the sense

788
00:38:17,062 --> 00:38:19,940
of how the organization looks at.

789
00:38:19,940 --> 00:38:24,020
Yo the justice system, both criminal and civil civil.

790
00:38:24,020 --> 00:38:26,703
Car, what do you plan to do or how can

791
00:38:26,774 --> 00:38:30,305
you take all of this that that you so passionately

792
00:38:30,375 --> 00:38:34,259
talked about and bring it to that organization and make

793
00:38:34,259 --> 00:38:36,741
some. You know some movement,

794
00:38:36,741 --> 00:38:39,394
some change, rattle the cage a little bit.

795
00:38:39,394 --> 00:38:41,676
Shake it up. So what are your plans?

796
00:38:41,676 --> 00:38:43,342
Yeah, and so you're right.

797
00:38:43,342 --> 00:38:47,442
National Association Attorney General or made up of mostly elected

798
00:38:47,504 --> 00:38:51,232
attorneys general from all the States and territories in the

799
00:38:51,294 --> 00:38:52,164
United States,

800
00:38:52,164 --> 00:38:55,172
or 56 of them. If you count the District of

801
00:38:55,242 --> 00:38:58,180
Columbia and some of the other non states.

802
00:38:58,180 --> 00:39:01,834
You know, I thought a lot about using my president

803
00:39:01,907 --> 00:39:05,268
year in a way to have the most impact possible

804
00:39:05,341 --> 00:39:06,218
in the room,

805
00:39:06,218 --> 00:39:10,923
and, um, happened. Appanna subject matter actually was on the

806
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,626
beach walking with my niece and we came up with

807
00:39:14,703 --> 00:39:17,480
it and we're going to focus on hate.

808
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:22,760
And the ways in which hate has been utilized.

809
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:27,171
Um will also have aspects of the law that come

810
00:39:27,267 --> 00:39:28,705
into play here.

811
00:39:28,705 --> 00:39:34,580
But to divide Americans. And to elevate.

812
00:39:34,580 --> 00:39:39,653
People's own selfish interest. And I'm sure hopeful that my

813
00:39:39,739 --> 00:39:42,748
Democratic colleagues and I'm sure,

814
00:39:42,748 --> 00:39:47,381
hopeful that my Republican colleagues will agree that hate has

815
00:39:47,455 --> 00:39:51,416
no place and certainly has no place in the allocation

816
00:39:51,490 --> 00:39:52,910
of the rule of law.

817
00:39:52,910 --> 00:39:55,703
Uh, so, uh, that's what my initiative is gonna be

818
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,723
about a reason why I sought out the presidency about

819
00:39:58,780 --> 00:39:59,692
three years ago.

820
00:39:59,692 --> 00:40:02,321
You had to sort of do certain things to get

821
00:40:02,382 --> 00:40:05,500
yourself in the mix was because I wanted to elevate

822
00:40:05,561 --> 00:40:07,090
the District of Columbia.

823
00:40:07,090 --> 00:40:09,594
Uh, to a level where people viewed it as a

824
00:40:09,654 --> 00:40:13,588
powerful jurisdiction and now we've got the perfect opportunity to

825
00:40:13,648 --> 00:40:16,152
talk about hate and the flip side of hate.

826
00:40:16,152 --> 00:40:17,811
Which is love, uh, so yeah,

827
00:40:17,811 --> 00:40:20,121
I think it's going to be a great year.

828
00:40:20,121 --> 00:40:22,952
Would love to get on the podcast and talk about

829
00:40:23,012 --> 00:40:23,675
that limit.

830
00:40:23,675 --> 00:40:26,900
I mean, I should question about that because.

831
00:40:26,900 --> 00:40:30,181
Hate People love to hate and I hate to say

832
00:40:30,259 --> 00:40:31,274
it like that.

833
00:40:31,274 --> 00:40:34,378
Or maybe I love to say that people love to

834
00:40:34,452 --> 00:40:35,930
hate and it's it is.

835
00:40:35,930 --> 00:40:38,802
And you look at these studies on the polarization of

836
00:40:38,857 --> 00:40:39,354
politics.

837
00:40:39,354 --> 00:40:42,615
And you think people are voting against their own interest?

838
00:40:42,615 --> 00:40:45,882
Well, they actually are a lot of times because they're

839
00:40:45,942 --> 00:40:48,120
so identify with the cultural group.

840
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:50,859
And with their most they most love to do is

841
00:40:50,923 --> 00:40:54,044
hate the other guys and so hate animates so much.

842
00:40:54,044 --> 00:40:56,150
And it's very I think.

843
00:40:56,150 --> 00:40:58,946
Extremely astute of your niece and you to come up

844
00:40:59,003 --> 00:41:01,970
with that because it animates what's happening here,

845
00:41:01,970 --> 00:41:04,308
but that's a big. Big issue,

846
00:41:04,308 --> 00:41:07,429
how do you get your hands around there?

847
00:41:07,429 --> 00:41:10,238
I mean, I think it is a huge issue.

848
00:41:10,238 --> 00:41:14,217
We're lucky to have recruited a spectacular woman,

849
00:41:14,217 --> 00:41:18,010
Aaron Wilson, who I think is one of the foremost

850
00:41:18,089 --> 00:41:20,380
scholars in the area of hate.

851
00:41:20,380 --> 00:41:23,689
She did that in the Senate and she is very

852
00:41:23,768 --> 00:41:28,338
very learning on things like the white supremacy movement,

853
00:41:28,338 --> 00:41:32,863
what we're talking about here is really fear and ignorance

854
00:41:32,941 --> 00:41:34,580
that are manipulated.

855
00:41:34,580 --> 00:41:38,698
By people who know that it can be used to

856
00:41:38,798 --> 00:41:41,610
manipulate recognizes bumps.

857
00:41:41,610 --> 00:41:44,311
Go back to you know religion.

858
00:41:44,311 --> 00:41:48,118
OK, Uhm and obviously we go will go into I

859
00:41:48,209 --> 00:41:52,288
will go into Hitler and and you know the anti

860
00:41:52,379 --> 00:41:57,455
semitic brutality and terror that he cost will also talk

861
00:41:57,455 --> 00:42:02,666
about you know bias and hate against Asian Americans that

862
00:42:02,757 --> 00:42:03,397
we saw,

863
00:42:03,397 --> 00:42:07,427
you know in World War after World War Two we

864
00:42:07,518 --> 00:42:08,709
see it again.

865
00:42:08,709 --> 00:42:12,040
Now with this quote China Virus Ware.

866
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:15,494
CBS Reporter asks a question happens to be an Asian

867
00:42:15,562 --> 00:42:19,151
American who knows whether she was Chinese or not and

868
00:42:19,219 --> 00:42:21,996
she gets a talking to from the president.

869
00:42:21,996 --> 00:42:24,552
But why are you asking that question?

870
00:42:24,552 --> 00:42:26,502
But glass China and he said,

871
00:42:26,502 --> 00:42:29,422
exactly so. I mean, I think that so long as

872
00:42:29,490 --> 00:42:33,700
we're able to really make this initiative one about education,

873
00:42:33,700 --> 00:42:35,718
not who's right. Who's wrong?

874
00:42:35,718 --> 00:42:38,575
You're a fool for being a part of the hate

875
00:42:38,643 --> 00:42:41,637
your part of it because you're a Republican.

876
00:42:41,637 --> 00:42:43,790
I'm good because I'm a Democrat.

877
00:42:43,790 --> 00:42:45,526
We can avoid all that stuff.

878
00:42:45,526 --> 00:42:48,458
Then. I think that we have a chance to actually,

879
00:42:48,458 --> 00:42:52,270
uh, you know, educate and lift some hearts and minds.

880
00:42:52,270 --> 00:42:55,629
Karl is so. You know,

881
00:42:55,629 --> 00:42:59,535
given the you know the passion you bring to the

882
00:42:59,618 --> 00:43:04,770
table and the discourse that's unfolding through the lawsuits.

883
00:43:04,770 --> 00:43:08,274
What are you doing to confront what might initially be

884
00:43:08,339 --> 00:43:10,934
a people on the other side of the aisle?

885
00:43:10,934 --> 00:43:12,989
When you get to the presidency,

886
00:43:12,989 --> 00:43:15,686
just tuning you out from jump and saying,

887
00:43:15,686 --> 00:43:18,658
well, you know this guy is anti trump and he's

888
00:43:18,723 --> 00:43:21,824
all about trying to bring down a president an my

889
00:43:21,889 --> 00:43:25,895
constituencies all about the president so I can't align myself

890
00:43:25,895 --> 00:43:28,078
with him at the same time listen,

891
00:43:28,078 --> 00:43:31,455
no ones against diversity. I think in their heart no

892
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:33,728
one wants to hate except you know,

893
00:43:33,728 --> 00:43:36,405
really, you know. Evil people but but but I have

894
00:43:36,461 --> 00:43:39,082
faith in humanity that most don't want to hate.

895
00:43:39,082 --> 00:43:40,855
But how do you cut through that?

896
00:43:40,855 --> 00:43:43,494
Uh, what are you planning to do about it so

897
00:43:43,556 --> 00:43:45,090
that you don't get muted?

898
00:43:45,090 --> 00:43:48,893
Yeah, I think that's the biggest challenge we face.

899
00:43:48,893 --> 00:43:52,517
Actually a bomb an I'm hopeful that we'll be able

900
00:43:52,591 --> 00:43:55,476
to overcome it by completely stripping,

901
00:43:55,476 --> 00:43:57,231
you know myself out of,

902
00:43:57,231 --> 00:44:00,449
you know, kind of the political arm in arm.

903
00:44:00,449 --> 00:44:02,790
Anant that I wear. And instead,

904
00:44:02,790 --> 00:44:06,210
you know, just deal with the issue like we all

905
00:44:06,284 --> 00:44:07,251
have when we.

906
00:44:07,251 --> 00:44:11,347
I don't know whether you've had the fortune or privilege

907
00:44:11,420 --> 00:44:15,370
of going to either the Holocaust museum or even going.

908
00:44:15,370 --> 00:44:20,465
To Israel to see their children's Holocaust Museum.

909
00:44:20,465 --> 00:44:23,306
If you go into those places,

910
00:44:23,306 --> 00:44:29,437
you see. Unquestionably what the danger is of demagoguery,

911
00:44:29,437 --> 00:44:35,663
fear, ignorance all based on subjugate ING an entire people

912
00:44:35,768 --> 00:44:38,090
to below human status.

913
00:44:38,090 --> 00:44:41,444
You see the same if you go back to like

914
00:44:41,530 --> 00:44:45,056
I did recently to Ghana and you go to one

915
00:44:45,142 --> 00:44:50,044
of these Western Cove African castles where there aren't.

916
00:44:50,044 --> 00:44:53,630
They're not castles. There were Dungeons.

917
00:44:53,630 --> 00:44:59,012
There were over 60 million Africans were put into these

918
00:44:59,109 --> 00:44:59,990
Dungeons.

919
00:44:59,990 --> 00:45:06,856
40% of them died in the dungeon before getting onto

920
00:45:06,991 --> 00:45:09,010
the slave ship.

921
00:45:09,010 --> 00:45:12,913
I think that when people are forced to confront those

922
00:45:12,987 --> 00:45:14,018
neutral facts,

923
00:45:14,018 --> 00:45:16,550
these are all facts.

924
00:45:16,550 --> 00:45:20,470
Then I think it sensitizes folks to to learn in

925
00:45:20,553 --> 00:45:24,640
a way that's not blue Democrat or red Republican.

926
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:27,446
And so that's what we hope to do.

927
00:45:27,446 --> 00:45:32,435
But you're exactly right. The biggest obstacle I have is

928
00:45:32,524 --> 00:45:34,930
in wearing a Democratic at.

929
00:45:34,930 --> 00:45:37,815
And and Karl isn't part of this about.

930
00:45:37,815 --> 00:45:41,771
I mean, there's facts, and you know you've educated a

931
00:45:41,846 --> 00:45:45,130
lot of people over the years and about a lot

932
00:45:45,205 --> 00:45:45,951
of things.

933
00:45:45,951 --> 00:45:49,246
Uhm, around race. You know I've had a lot of

934
00:45:49,321 --> 00:45:51,942
conversations dating back 35 years,

935
00:45:51,942 --> 00:45:55,391
and which have been, you don't know this a big

936
00:45:55,466 --> 00:45:57,490
part of my own development.

937
00:45:57,490 --> 00:46:00,152
And so there's those conversations.

938
00:46:00,152 --> 00:46:03,908
But there's. There's emotional content and once heard,

939
00:46:03,908 --> 00:46:07,250
Bill Clinton say you're not going to get to him.

940
00:46:07,250 --> 00:46:10,061
By fax all the time you're going to get to

941
00:46:10,128 --> 00:46:13,809
him to use more scientific term by limbic resonance the

942
00:46:13,876 --> 00:46:15,415
emotional part of them.

943
00:46:15,415 --> 00:46:18,790
Them isn't part of this about how do we.

944
00:46:18,790 --> 00:46:21,987
Introduce and speak from a place of more vulnerability so

945
00:46:22,043 --> 00:46:23,726
we're not shouting each other.

946
00:46:23,726 --> 00:46:25,920
And how do you introduce that?

947
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:29,147
As a national leader, how do you do that?

948
00:46:29,147 --> 00:46:32,440
Well, I think you hit it right on the head

949
00:46:32,519 --> 00:46:32,989
there.

950
00:46:32,989 --> 00:46:36,353
You know you cause me to skip a little beat

951
00:46:36,431 --> 00:46:37,292
their Bell.

952
00:46:37,292 --> 00:46:40,135
I got a little vulnerable myself OK,

953
00:46:40,135 --> 00:46:42,901
but I do think that you know facts,

954
00:46:42,901 --> 00:46:49,430
illustration. Uh, voice pictures, Video Music senses you know,

955
00:46:49,430 --> 00:46:53,700
uhm are ways to get people to get out of

956
00:46:53,807 --> 00:46:59,572
their own prism and just observe what happened and why

957
00:46:59,679 --> 00:47:00,960
it happened.

958
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:05,997
And thereby gain a greater understanding of why people may

959
00:47:06,084 --> 00:47:08,516
be accentuating differences,

960
00:47:08,516 --> 00:47:13,880
not for accentuating differences sake but for the sake of

961
00:47:13,974 --> 00:47:15,480
dividing people.

962
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:17,186
For their own sake, uhm,

963
00:47:17,186 --> 00:47:20,767
so that's the challenge here is to really bring this

964
00:47:20,836 --> 00:47:24,348
in a multi dimensional way where it's not just cold

965
00:47:24,417 --> 00:47:24,968
history,

966
00:47:24,968 --> 00:47:28,449
but it's something that people can touch and feel.

967
00:47:28,449 --> 00:47:30,633
I feel like I really sensitive.

968
00:47:30,633 --> 00:47:34,484
We can do that. Folks will connect to their inner

969
00:47:34,563 --> 00:47:35,270
humanity.

970
00:47:35,270 --> 00:47:39,615
And then be able to sort of side on the

971
00:47:39,726 --> 00:47:42,400
that can never be right.

972
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:46,150
Side of the Ledger. So car we talked a lot

973
00:47:46,240 --> 00:47:48,740
about vision in the episode.

974
00:47:48,740 --> 00:47:53,416
If you, uh, if you could make your vision come

975
00:47:53,517 --> 00:47:56,770
to fruition in it's clear sense.

976
00:47:56,770 --> 00:47:58,843
Over the next five years,

977
00:47:58,843 --> 00:48:03,190
let's say, um. What school Racine?

978
00:48:03,190 --> 00:48:10,320
Doing Feeling and making happen five years from now.

979
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:14,264
Yeah, I think if I had one thing to focus

980
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:17,630
on in five in the next five years,

981
00:48:17,630 --> 00:48:20,479
what I would focus my energy,

982
00:48:20,479 --> 00:48:24,086
effort and attention on is on really,

983
00:48:24,086 --> 00:48:30,612
really attacking the sense of hopelessness that permeates some of

984
00:48:30,713 --> 00:48:34,930
our most underserved minority communities.

985
00:48:34,930 --> 00:48:39,733
Places where you know kids literally don't grow up with

986
00:48:39,821 --> 00:48:41,480
a consistent adult.

987
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,469
Mom or dad may or may not be there.

988
00:48:44,469 --> 00:48:48,816
Um, the peer group that their associated with is not

989
00:48:48,899 --> 00:48:53,413
going to be engaged in positive activities and that in

990
00:48:53,496 --> 00:48:57,007
a real way the path forward as they see it

991
00:48:57,007 --> 00:49:00,129
is a path that is only going to go up

992
00:49:00,213 --> 00:49:02,154
to the age of 20 or so,

993
00:49:02,154 --> 00:49:06,350
and that you know, confinement jail is all part of

994
00:49:06,434 --> 00:49:09,959
life and so is an abrupt death by gunshot.

995
00:49:09,959 --> 00:49:12,450
I think I'd focus my energies.

996
00:49:12,450 --> 00:49:15,820
On trying to uplift those young people.

997
00:49:18,310 --> 00:49:20,168
Well, we want to thank you.

998
00:49:20,168 --> 00:49:23,003
This has been a great hour and we could go

999
00:49:23,070 --> 00:49:24,150
on a lot longer,

1000
00:49:24,150 --> 00:49:26,890
but we gotta, we gotta end it and we want

1001
00:49:26,957 --> 00:49:30,833
to know will continue this conversation because I know Bob

1002
00:49:30,900 --> 00:49:33,640
and I both want to be part of the healing

1003
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:37,248
that the country needs. The divisions that we see that

1004
00:49:37,315 --> 00:49:40,255
have been there for so long that you go back

1005
00:49:40,322 --> 00:49:43,262
to slavery or you go back to 65 Civil Rights

1006
00:49:43,262 --> 00:49:45,916
Act that really divide us even further.

1007
00:49:45,916 --> 00:49:47,775
We want to be part of that.

1008
00:49:47,775 --> 00:49:49,500
We're going to follow you.

1009
00:49:49,500 --> 00:49:51,446
And will have you on again.

1010
00:49:51,446 --> 00:49:53,531
So thank you. Thank you guys.

1011
00:49:53,531 --> 00:49:56,380
Very much. Love love, love the podcasts.

1012
00:49:56,380 --> 00:49:58,326
A man in continued success.

1013
00:49:58,326 --> 00:50:01,662
Karl, thanks so much. Thank you for joining us.

1014
00:50:01,662 --> 00:50:05,582
We hope you've enjoyed this episode of iron advocate and

1015
00:50:05,652 --> 00:50:09,643
that you take what you've learned an integrated into your

1016
00:50:09,713 --> 00:50:11,253
own personal practice.

1017
00:50:11,253 --> 00:50:15,006
As always, we leave you with a minute of mindfulness.

1018
00:50:15,006 --> 00:50:20,350
Breathe in. Breathe out and we'll see you next time.

1019
00:51:15,180 --> 00:51:25,780
Bella Well, Yeah.