Ep 6 - Melissa Murray (Pt 2)

Simply put, Melissa Murray is a super star in the legal profession.  In Part Two of our conversation, Melissa Murray takes us inside her interview with then Judge, and now Supreme Court Justice, Sonia Sotomayor, when she interviewed for a clerkship.  Melissa details how Justice Sotomayor became a mentor to her and why she credits Justice Sotomayor with creating the opportunity that led to her becoming a law professor.  Melissa also shares the inspiration behind her award winning article titled Marriage as Punishment which is a truly fascinating look at modern marriage through a historical lens to a time when the act of seduction was a crime.  Enjoy this episode of Iron Advocate as we continue to explore how lawyers can kill it in the law without it killing us. Check out Melissa’s own podcast, Strict Scrutiny, on your favorite podcast platform or by visiting https://strict-scrutiny.simplecast.com. You can follow Melissa on Twitter @ProfMMurray.

Transcript

1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,563
Melissa Murray is a superstar in the legal profession in

2
00:00:03,627 --> 00:00:05,472
part two of our conversation,

3
00:00:05,472 --> 00:00:08,113
Melissa takes us inside her interview with,

4
00:00:08,113 --> 00:00:11,294
then judge and now Supreme Court Justice Sonia Soto,

5
00:00:11,294 --> 00:00:14,175
my or when Melissa interviewed for a clerkship.

6
00:00:14,175 --> 00:00:16,215
Melissa details how Justice Soto,

7
00:00:16,215 --> 00:00:18,655
my or became a mentor to her and why she

8
00:00:18,716 --> 00:00:19,997
credits justice Soto.

9
00:00:19,997 --> 00:00:23,338
My or with creating the opportunity that led to Melissa

10
00:00:23,399 --> 00:00:24,918
becoming a law professor.

11
00:00:24,918 --> 00:00:28,759
She also shares the inspiration behind her award winning article

12
00:00:28,819 --> 00:00:30,620
titled Marriage as punishment.

13
00:00:30,620 --> 00:00:34,721
Which is a truly fascinating look at modern marriage through

14
00:00:34,789 --> 00:00:37,728
a historical lens to a time when the act of

15
00:00:37,796 --> 00:00:39,300
seduction was a crime.

16
00:00:39,300 --> 00:00:43,130
Enjoy this episode of iron advocate as we continue to

17
00:00:43,203 --> 00:00:46,816
explore how lawyers can kill it in the law without

18
00:00:46,888 --> 00:00:47,900
it killing us.

19
00:00:47,900 --> 00:00:52,358
You're listening to iron advocate,

20
00:00:52,358 --> 00:00:56,180
the podcast dedicated to you,

21
00:00:56,180 --> 00:01:07,930
the trial attorney. Visionary Warrior Unfiltered no holds barred.

22
00:01:07,930 --> 00:01:12,779
Iron advocate. Join Bob live at Jeffrey Bowl and today's

23
00:01:12,866 --> 00:01:16,936
top legal minds on a journey to discover how to

24
00:01:17,022 --> 00:01:20,659
kill it in the law without it killing you.

25
00:01:20,659 --> 00:01:25,590
Because being the best advocate for others begins with being

26
00:01:25,672 --> 00:01:28,220
the best advocate for yourself.

27
00:01:28,220 --> 00:01:32,632
So, Melissa, you mentioned this idea of sort of publicly

28
00:01:32,711 --> 00:01:33,735
of mentoring,

29
00:01:33,735 --> 00:01:36,930
or they would and there were no.

30
00:01:36,930 --> 00:01:40,220
Women like you as role models.

31
00:01:40,220 --> 00:01:42,862
I just want to pivot for a second.

32
00:01:42,862 --> 00:01:45,352
You clerked for then judge soda.

33
00:01:45,352 --> 00:01:46,937
My or is that right?

34
00:01:46,937 --> 00:01:48,522
I did all right now.

35
00:01:48,522 --> 00:01:51,239
Obviously a justice in this report.

36
00:01:51,239 --> 00:01:54,107
Has she been a mentor to you totally?

37
00:01:54,107 --> 00:01:57,260
I would not have this karere

38
00:01:57,260 --> 00:02:02,030
Without her support, and yeah I mean full stop uhm.

39
00:02:02,030 --> 00:02:04,934
Yeah, one is just sort of the credential of having

40
00:02:04,993 --> 00:02:06,619
clerked for a federal judge.

41
00:02:06,619 --> 00:02:09,277
Any federal judge? I think they gave me a kind

42
00:02:09,335 --> 00:02:12,225
be sort of imprimatur of legitimacy that I think I

43
00:02:12,283 --> 00:02:14,363
needed as an African American woman,

44
00:02:14,363 --> 00:02:16,543
so there was that and then there was.

45
00:02:16,543 --> 00:02:18,723
Also, I think just her interventions.

46
00:02:18,723 --> 00:02:21,206
Like you know, I remember when I was on the

47
00:02:21,263 --> 00:02:24,670
teaching market looking for a fellowship that this was like

48
00:02:24,727 --> 00:02:27,672
sort of before I actually became a law professor at

49
00:02:27,672 --> 00:02:30,311
to find a fellowship where I could just go sit

50
00:02:30,368 --> 00:02:32,720
for two years and work on my scholarship.

51
00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:34,210
And just like you know,

52
00:02:34,210 --> 00:02:36,771
sort of learn how to be a teacher and she

53
00:02:36,833 --> 00:02:40,143
called up someone at Columbia Law School that she had

54
00:02:40,205 --> 00:02:44,140
been fielding all of these recommendations from over the years.

55
00:02:44,140 --> 00:02:47,390
Just like I have this great clerk she's been working

56
00:02:47,453 --> 00:02:50,016
on with me on this class that I teach for

57
00:02:50,078 --> 00:02:52,891
Columbia and you should really interview her.

58
00:02:52,891 --> 00:02:55,846
She would be great and she just reached out and

59
00:02:55,909 --> 00:02:57,670
did that and I got that job.

60
00:02:57,670 --> 00:03:00,028
I went and interviewed. Got that job.

61
00:03:00,028 --> 00:03:02,883
I went to Columbia for two years and then went

62
00:03:02,945 --> 00:03:03,690
to Berkeley.

63
00:03:03,690 --> 00:03:07,840
Like having secured a tenure track position.

64
00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:10,736
Having someone who could just pick up the phone like

65
00:03:10,792 --> 00:03:13,354
that and would pick up the phone like that was

66
00:03:13,410 --> 00:03:14,301
just invaluable.

67
00:03:14,301 --> 00:03:16,675
I mean, I can't like that's like not just a

68
00:03:16,730 --> 00:03:17,890
mentor but a sponsor.

69
00:03:20,770 --> 00:03:25,195
What and one of the things we talk about in

70
00:03:25,298 --> 00:03:27,870
iron advocate is helping?

71
00:03:27,870 --> 00:03:31,438
People find their way through the law and mentoring is

72
00:03:31,504 --> 00:03:34,081
something that comes up time and again,

73
00:03:34,081 --> 00:03:37,015
and I know that we've there's a study that I

74
00:03:37,082 --> 00:03:37,415
read.

75
00:03:37,415 --> 00:03:40,858
I think it was like about in the Atlantic about

76
00:03:40,931 --> 00:03:42,250
mentoring and how.

77
00:03:42,250 --> 00:03:45,243
It's a such an obvious statement what a huge difference

78
00:03:45,297 --> 00:03:45,950
maker it is,

79
00:03:45,950 --> 00:03:49,531
and that's not even that's a precursor to sponsorship as

80
00:03:49,595 --> 00:03:50,170
you said.

81
00:03:50,170 --> 00:03:53,604
And having somebody. Meant are you the one of the

82
00:03:53,675 --> 00:03:57,039
key ingredients is you have to the person who is

83
00:03:57,109 --> 00:03:57,810
mentoring.

84
00:03:57,810 --> 00:04:01,875
Has to be reminded of themselves somehow in order to

85
00:04:01,953 --> 00:04:04,376
get that Menti that connection,

86
00:04:04,376 --> 00:04:08,215
and I think that's one of the issues that is

87
00:04:08,302 --> 00:04:09,960
lacking especially.

88
00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:12,404
In the areas were talking about,

89
00:04:12,404 --> 00:04:17,071
was there something about you think you that reminded justice?

90
00:04:17,071 --> 00:04:19,640
Sort of my of herself?

91
00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,940
OK, I'll tell you this story of how I interviewed

92
00:04:23,007 --> 00:04:23,613
with her,

93
00:04:23,613 --> 00:04:27,446
so I I totally want about the whole clerkship application

94
00:04:27,513 --> 00:04:28,051
process.

95
00:04:28,051 --> 00:04:32,037
Asked backwards like I just decided like I could only

96
00:04:32,112 --> 00:04:33,240
live in a city.

97
00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,185
I could only work for a judge of color because

98
00:04:36,249 --> 00:04:37,402
I wanted a mentor.

99
00:04:37,402 --> 00:04:40,889
Uhm, which if you're sort of limiting yourself to major

100
00:04:40,953 --> 00:04:45,200
Metropolitan areas and judges of color and those major Metropolitan

101
00:04:45,264 --> 00:04:48,751
areas are basically applying to 17 judges and the whole

102
00:04:48,751 --> 00:04:50,950
country, and so.

103
00:04:50,950 --> 00:04:53,522
I was applying to this very limited pool.

104
00:04:53,522 --> 00:04:56,814
That's the first mistake they tell you when you apply

105
00:04:56,876 --> 00:04:57,808
for clerkships,

106
00:04:57,808 --> 00:05:01,156
you just have to apply broadly across the country like

107
00:05:01,218 --> 00:05:02,768
hundreds of applications,

108
00:05:02,768 --> 00:05:05,199
and I didn't do that and I was lucky to

109
00:05:05,262 --> 00:05:06,259
get a clerkship.

110
00:05:06,259 --> 00:05:09,236
Really lucky that she plucked me out of the pool

111
00:05:09,298 --> 00:05:11,035
and decided to interview me.

112
00:05:11,035 --> 00:05:13,791
She did that because one of my recommenders,

113
00:05:13,791 --> 00:05:16,485
a professor, not an African American woman,

114
00:05:16,485 --> 00:05:17,771
but a woman at Yale,

115
00:05:17,771 --> 00:05:19,179
wrote a letter for me,

116
00:05:19,179 --> 00:05:21,200
and this was someone she trusted.

117
00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:23,431
And she's like, OK, I'll give her a chance,

118
00:05:23,431 --> 00:05:25,002
bring her in and I went there.

119
00:05:25,002 --> 00:05:27,578
And 1st you interview with the clerks and you know

120
00:05:27,630 --> 00:05:28,145
it's fine.

121
00:05:28,145 --> 00:05:30,448
They ask you about your resume to talk to you

122
00:05:30,499 --> 00:05:33,570
about like issues that they're dealing with on their docket.

123
00:05:33,570 --> 00:05:34,939
How would you handle this?

124
00:05:34,939 --> 00:05:37,747
Blah blah blah? And then you get ushered in to

125
00:05:37,808 --> 00:05:38,540
talk to her.

126
00:05:38,540 --> 00:05:41,490
And. I know this is sort of the moment and

127
00:05:41,561 --> 00:05:43,598
I'm waiting for her question.

128
00:05:43,598 --> 00:05:46,681
Think it's going to be some really nitpicky question about

129
00:05:46,734 --> 00:05:46,947
law.

130
00:05:46,947 --> 00:05:49,757
I'm going to impress her and show her how smart

131
00:05:49,816 --> 00:05:52,447
I am this whole thing and her question to me

132
00:05:52,506 --> 00:05:54,240
is tell me about your family.

133
00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:56,920
Yeah, it was the one question I had not been

134
00:05:56,981 --> 00:05:57,773
prepared for,

135
00:05:57,773 --> 00:06:00,304
in part because you know there I was in my

136
00:06:00,364 --> 00:06:03,377
second year at Yale and I didn't really talk about

137
00:06:03,437 --> 00:06:07,293
my family alot because my family circumstances were so different

138
00:06:07,293 --> 00:06:10,269
from or at least I imagine they were so different

139
00:06:10,330 --> 00:06:11,484
from my classmates.

140
00:06:11,484 --> 00:06:13,939
You know, I had this mom who is a widow.

141
00:06:13,939 --> 00:06:16,394
She was a nurse and make a lot of money.

142
00:06:16,394 --> 00:06:18,580
I was funding my law school.

143
00:06:18,580 --> 00:06:23,716
Education independently. Dad had died like I just like at

144
00:06:23,806 --> 00:06:24,257
Yale,

145
00:06:24,257 --> 00:06:27,682
privilege really seemed like a presumption if you didn't have

146
00:06:27,739 --> 00:06:27,907
it.

147
00:06:27,907 --> 00:06:30,064
You just kind of didn't talk about it.

148
00:06:30,064 --> 00:06:32,386
I mean, that was sort of just how it was.

149
00:06:32,386 --> 00:06:35,530
I think it's very different now for students just across

150
00:06:35,586 --> 00:06:36,147
the board,

151
00:06:36,147 --> 00:06:38,949
but like then it just didn't feel it was something

152
00:06:39,005 --> 00:06:40,350
you could be open about.

153
00:06:40,350 --> 00:06:42,658
And so I had not been prepared to talk to

154
00:06:42,714 --> 00:06:43,558
her about this.

155
00:06:43,558 --> 00:06:46,640
And she's just the kind of person where.

156
00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:50,966
You find yourself telling her things that you would not

157
00:06:51,045 --> 00:06:52,461
tell other people,

158
00:06:52,461 --> 00:06:55,798
and so you know. I told her like you know,

159
00:06:55,798 --> 00:06:59,162
my dad was diabetic and for much of my life

160
00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,291
he was really ill and I had to help him

161
00:07:02,369 --> 00:07:05,577
give him be shots and then he died when I

162
00:07:05,577 --> 00:07:08,914
was 17 and she's just nodding and nodding.

163
00:07:08,914 --> 00:07:11,708
And I'm just like my mom's a nurse,

164
00:07:11,708 --> 00:07:14,327
I'm Boo Boo and. I'm touching then.

165
00:07:14,327 --> 00:07:17,612
I leave, you know, so I'm ushered out and I'm

166
00:07:17,685 --> 00:07:20,824
on the train back to New Haven and I'm like

167
00:07:20,897 --> 00:07:24,255
just in tears like you know that was my chance

168
00:07:24,255 --> 00:07:27,691
to impress her and hear my telling her about my

169
00:07:27,764 --> 00:07:30,908
crazy family and like my dad he was so sick

170
00:07:30,981 --> 00:07:32,516
and this whole thing.

171
00:07:32,516 --> 00:07:34,650
It was just awful and.

172
00:07:34,650 --> 00:07:37,322
Then you like, then later you know I do get

173
00:07:37,384 --> 00:07:39,683
an offer was just totally surprising.

174
00:07:39,683 --> 00:07:42,543
Any I go to work for her whatever Fast forward

175
00:07:42,605 --> 00:07:44,594
to 2010 when her book comes out,

176
00:07:44,594 --> 00:07:47,455
my beloved world and you know I had known bits

177
00:07:47,518 --> 00:07:49,197
and pieces about her story,

178
00:07:49,197 --> 00:07:52,415
from clerking for her. But when I read her biography

179
00:07:52,477 --> 00:07:55,201
was that was like my first time just sort of

180
00:07:55,262 --> 00:07:56,686
seeing it all laid out.

181
00:07:56,686 --> 00:07:59,270
And as I read her autobiography.

182
00:07:59,270 --> 00:08:02,361
It was the first time I realized that for years

183
00:08:02,426 --> 00:08:05,780
I assumed I had blown this interview by telling her

184
00:08:05,846 --> 00:08:08,016
all of these things about myself,

185
00:08:08,016 --> 00:08:11,450
and in fact it wasn't that I'd gotten this clerkship

186
00:08:11,516 --> 00:08:13,563
in spite of what I said it was,

187
00:08:13,563 --> 00:08:16,201
but I got it because of what I said that

188
00:08:16,267 --> 00:08:18,906
this idea that you know she saw in me so

189
00:08:18,972 --> 00:08:19,763
many things,

190
00:08:19,763 --> 00:08:23,092
I think that mapped onto her life like the diabetic

191
00:08:23,157 --> 00:08:26,616
father having to give him shots of insulin idea which

192
00:08:26,681 --> 00:08:30,010
she she understood that the mother who was a nurse.

193
00:08:30,010 --> 00:08:31,945
Her mother was a nurse like just,

194
00:08:31,945 --> 00:08:33,765
you know, the immigrant family.

195
00:08:33,765 --> 00:08:36,354
Like all of this, resonated with her in a way

196
00:08:36,411 --> 00:08:39,000
that I just did not recognize in that moment,

197
00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,998
and it didn't really come together for me even while

198
00:08:42,055 --> 00:08:43,381
I was working with her,

199
00:08:43,381 --> 00:08:46,107
because it had never been sort of laid out that

200
00:08:46,165 --> 00:08:46,397
way,

201
00:08:46,397 --> 00:08:48,844
and it was the first time I realized that I

202
00:08:48,900 --> 00:08:51,973
only got that clerkship because in that moment she had

203
00:08:52,030 --> 00:08:54,590
sort of load me into being my authentic self.

204
00:08:54,590 --> 00:08:58,692
You were genuine Anuar vulnerable and and I was completely

205
00:08:58,763 --> 00:09:02,016
honest in a way that I probably wasn't even in

206
00:09:02,087 --> 00:09:05,340
law school about my situation to other people.

207
00:09:05,340 --> 00:09:07,968
Yeah, I was like I'm just like this is what

208
00:09:08,029 --> 00:09:08,579
happened.

209
00:09:08,579 --> 00:09:11,338
I mean, that's such a lesson for all lawyers.

210
00:09:11,338 --> 00:09:13,258
Young and old colors, which is,

211
00:09:13,258 --> 00:09:16,419
you know, be authentic self and be genuine an you'll

212
00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:17,696
connect with people.

213
00:09:17,696 --> 00:09:19,316
I mean it's you know it's.

214
00:09:19,316 --> 00:09:22,697
It's an oversimplification of how to be a great advocate

215
00:09:22,758 --> 00:09:25,173
and you see that from her and she is her

216
00:09:25,233 --> 00:09:28,373
authentic self on the bench like when she does those

217
00:09:28,373 --> 00:09:31,361
4th amendment cases and she talks like has no one

218
00:09:31,422 --> 00:09:32,032
else here,

219
00:09:32,032 --> 00:09:35,031
had a cousin or a family member whose been stopped

220
00:09:35,091 --> 00:09:37,130
by the police and everyone's like.

221
00:09:37,130 --> 00:09:38,670
Looking around which is like OK,

222
00:09:38,670 --> 00:09:41,898
well I have. Like it and you just like it,

223
00:09:41,898 --> 00:09:45,245
just it makes such a difference I think so can

224
00:09:45,318 --> 00:09:46,337
we ask you in?

225
00:09:46,337 --> 00:09:49,966
It's funny you mentioned that that just now just a

226
00:09:50,039 --> 00:09:51,708
certain hours book was,

227
00:09:51,708 --> 00:09:53,641
I think, released in 2010.

228
00:09:53,641 --> 00:09:57,120
That was the same year that you want some awards

229
00:09:57,193 --> 00:09:59,512
for an article titled marriages,

230
00:09:59,512 --> 00:10:03,915
punishment that was published in the Columbia Law review were

231
00:10:03,987 --> 00:10:07,235
taking you back a little bit and the title as

232
00:10:07,307 --> 00:10:08,534
a divorce lawyer.

233
00:10:08,534 --> 00:10:12,193
I love the time. As a divorce were just sounded

234
00:10:12,271 --> 00:10:15,463
just like can I take that as a blog entry

235
00:10:15,541 --> 00:10:19,122
so the article does like a fairly deep dive on

236
00:10:19,122 --> 00:10:23,021
very deep dive on marriage as a vehicle for state

237
00:10:23,101 --> 00:10:26,125
control over individuals and families.

238
00:10:26,125 --> 00:10:29,901
Everything from like sex, the medical benefits,

239
00:10:29,901 --> 00:10:33,554
child care. Can you talk about how you came to

240
00:10:33,634 --> 00:10:38,478
sort of so passionately an intellectually call into question?

241
00:10:38,478 --> 00:10:43,322
This really probably. Largest societal institution that there is and

242
00:10:43,393 --> 00:10:44,960
where that comes from.

243
00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:50,582
Um? So. That article was written like,

244
00:10:50,582 --> 00:10:54,931
I think in the throes of the marriage equality debate,

245
00:10:54,931 --> 00:10:58,095
so Obergefell would be decided in 2015,

246
00:10:58,095 --> 00:11:01,733
and I was working on this probably from 2008,

247
00:11:01,733 --> 00:11:05,090
until when it was published in 2010.

248
00:11:05,090 --> 00:11:07,030
Um?

249
00:11:07,030 --> 00:11:08,533
Yeah 20. What's 20 *

250
00:11:08,533 --> 00:11:11,800
2011. Something like that, um.

251
00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:15,579
I thought it was so interesting in the whole discussion

252
00:11:15,648 --> 00:11:17,366
around marriage equality,

253
00:11:17,366 --> 00:11:21,235
that marriage is sort of taken as this unvarnished good,

254
00:11:21,235 --> 00:11:25,009
right? That the only real question was should we expand

255
00:11:25,077 --> 00:11:27,616
it to include more people in a style?

256
00:11:27,616 --> 00:11:31,740
It's really interesting because there are so many people who

257
00:11:31,809 --> 00:11:33,046
don't get married,

258
00:11:33,046 --> 00:11:37,458
so marriages punishment was written probably in between 2009 2012

259
00:11:37,526 --> 00:11:40,174
and it was sort of in the throes of the

260
00:11:40,241 --> 00:11:42,210
marriage equality debate and.

261
00:11:42,210 --> 00:11:46,121
The whole sort of discussion about marriage was so interesting.

262
00:11:46,121 --> 00:11:49,589
During that period you had people like Ted Olson writing

263
00:11:49,651 --> 00:11:50,766
and Time magazine,

264
00:11:50,766 --> 00:11:53,393
or the conservative case for gay marriage.

265
00:11:53,393 --> 00:11:54,921
And it's like, you know,

266
00:11:54,921 --> 00:12:00,308
marriage is fundamentally. A conservative institution where people are expected

267
00:12:00,376 --> 00:12:03,513
to be monogomous and supportive of each other,

268
00:12:03,513 --> 00:12:06,888
like why wouldn't we want to expand this and include

269
00:12:06,953 --> 00:12:08,835
gay men and women in it like?

270
00:12:08,835 --> 00:12:12,776
I mean there's nothing. Especially radical about marriage,

271
00:12:12,776 --> 00:12:13,974
and I was like, yeah,

272
00:12:13,974 --> 00:12:16,933
like that's right. That seems right and I was thinking

273
00:12:16,988 --> 00:12:19,782
about that and thinking about all of the people who

274
00:12:19,837 --> 00:12:23,015
live their lives outside of marriage and how much scrutiny

275
00:12:23,015 --> 00:12:25,466
and judgement is leveled at them about that,

276
00:12:25,466 --> 00:12:28,112
about the choice to be outside of marriage or to

277
00:12:28,167 --> 00:12:30,041
have children outside of marriage.

278
00:12:30,041 --> 00:12:32,518
And this paper was sort of an attempt to kind

279
00:12:32,573 --> 00:12:35,215
of think about that through the lens of history.

280
00:12:35,215 --> 00:12:38,137
And so I had been doing another paper about statutory

281
00:12:38,192 --> 00:12:39,681
rate that came out in 2010.

282
00:12:39,681 --> 00:12:41,860
That paper is called strange bedfellows.

283
00:12:41,860 --> 00:12:45,954
There was this Kansas, Nebraska Statutory Rape case that I

284
00:12:46,024 --> 00:12:48,565
was like absolutely fascinated with.

285
00:12:48,565 --> 00:12:52,093
and I wrote this whole paper about how this couple

286
00:12:52,163 --> 00:12:55,550
had been charged with statutory rape and Braska.

287
00:12:55,550 --> 00:12:58,553
But they had married each other in Kansas,

288
00:12:58,553 --> 00:13:02,287
and so was the fact that their Kansas marriage enough

289
00:13:02,357 --> 00:13:06,725
to absolve them of the statutory rape prosecution in Nebraska.

290
00:13:06,725 --> 00:13:09,030
And it was like the whole thing.

291
00:13:09,030 --> 00:13:12,173
And in the process of researching that case,

292
00:13:12,173 --> 00:13:13,710
I came across a whole.

293
00:13:13,710 --> 00:13:17,838
Range of cases from the 19th and early 20th century

294
00:13:17,918 --> 00:13:19,618
involving this crime,

295
00:13:19,618 --> 00:13:25,359
called seduction, that apparently was actually really prevalent in this

296
00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:26,006
period.

297
00:13:26,006 --> 00:13:30,864
I'm so about 34 American jurisdictions had seduction laws on

298
00:13:30,945 --> 00:13:31,755
the books,

299
00:13:31,755 --> 00:13:35,220
and the crime of seduction was.

300
00:13:35,220 --> 00:13:38,660
Basically, could joining a woman into having sex with you

301
00:13:38,721 --> 00:13:41,558
by telling her that you were going to marry her

302
00:13:41,618 --> 00:13:44,334
at some point in the near future sort of like

303
00:13:44,334 --> 00:13:47,551
this? Doesn't matter if we have sex now because we're

304
00:13:47,612 --> 00:13:49,251
going to be married anyway,

305
00:13:49,251 --> 00:13:51,649
and this will all be legal and Whatnot,

306
00:13:51,649 --> 00:13:53,987
but then you actually don't marry her,

307
00:13:53,987 --> 00:13:55,366
right? So you sort of.

308
00:13:55,366 --> 00:13:58,021
It's sort of. It was meant to kind of bridge

309
00:13:58,082 --> 00:14:01,702
the divide between marriage and rape and sort of acknowledge

310
00:14:01,763 --> 00:14:04,780
that there were sort of episodes of sex that could

311
00:14:04,780 --> 00:14:08,949
be. More coercive than consensual but also consensual and not

312
00:14:09,017 --> 00:14:10,931
nearly as coercive as rates.

313
00:14:10,931 --> 00:14:13,952
So sort of right in the middle and the interesting

314
00:14:14,012 --> 00:14:15,764
thing about seduction though,

315
00:14:15,764 --> 00:14:19,321
is there are all of these prosecutions usually initiated by

316
00:14:19,382 --> 00:14:21,492
the woman's family like her father.

317
00:14:21,492 --> 00:14:24,535
Her brother would get the Sheriff to come get you,

318
00:14:24,535 --> 00:14:27,497
and you get hauled into court and the judge would

319
00:14:27,558 --> 00:14:29,069
read the charges like it.

320
00:14:29,069 --> 00:14:32,219
You explain the charge of seduction and you know how

321
00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:33,067
do you plead?

322
00:14:33,067 --> 00:14:36,140
But before you pleaded, you have this opportunity.

323
00:14:36,140 --> 00:14:40,597
To either recant or Alternatively to marry the woman.

324
00:14:40,597 --> 00:14:43,734
If you said that you would marry her,

325
00:14:43,734 --> 00:14:48,891
the prosecution was suspended. Right and they transformed this criminal

326
00:14:48,963 --> 00:14:51,215
trial into a marriage ceremony.

327
00:14:51,215 --> 00:14:52,672
They bring the woman in.

328
00:14:52,672 --> 00:14:56,089
The judge would, instead of sentencing you would marry you

329
00:14:56,148 --> 00:14:57,975
to her and then you would goaf,

330
00:14:57,975 --> 00:15:00,190
but the prosecution wasn't eliminate.

331
00:15:00,190 --> 00:15:03,027
It was just sort of suspended and if you weren't

332
00:15:03,086 --> 00:15:04,386
a good husband to her,

333
00:15:04,386 --> 00:15:07,184
if you abandoned her, or if you cheated on her,

334
00:15:07,184 --> 00:15:10,489
they could revive the prosecution in the future and then

335
00:15:10,548 --> 00:15:11,846
just sort of have you.

336
00:15:11,846 --> 00:15:14,236
It was just suspended for a time period.

337
00:15:14,236 --> 00:15:17,220
So like marriage was kind of acknowledgement that.

338
00:15:17,220 --> 00:15:20,066
Even as it could serve as a defense to the

339
00:15:20,133 --> 00:15:20,540
crime,

340
00:15:20,540 --> 00:15:23,197
you weren't getting away with anything.

341
00:15:23,197 --> 00:15:24,591
You had to be sober.

342
00:15:24,591 --> 00:15:26,982
You had to be economically support.

343
00:15:26,982 --> 00:15:28,908
If you had to be monogomous,

344
00:15:28,908 --> 00:15:31,830
she literally was a ball and chain for you.

345
00:15:31,830 --> 00:15:34,981
And so this idea that marriage kind of had this

346
00:15:35,048 --> 00:15:38,870
disciplinary or punitive aspect to it was so interesting.

347
00:15:38,870 --> 00:15:41,621
And it was so clear in this period in the

348
00:15:41,688 --> 00:15:45,245
19th 20th century that that's how they thought of it.

349
00:15:45,245 --> 00:15:47,370
It was a way of imposing sexual.

350
00:15:47,370 --> 00:15:49,708
Yes, a plan on both the woman and the man

351
00:15:49,765 --> 00:15:50,848
who would you know,

352
00:15:50,848 --> 00:15:53,851
sort of shown by their inability to remain chase that

353
00:15:53,907 --> 00:15:56,400
they were in need of Correction in some way.

354
00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:58,083
An marriage could provide it.

355
00:15:58,083 --> 00:16:00,869
And if marriage did not provide it or they didn't

356
00:16:00,926 --> 00:16:02,290
consent to the marriage,

357
00:16:02,290 --> 00:16:05,038
well the other alternative was the Penitentiary.

358
00:16:05,038 --> 00:16:08,088
And so you know, thinking about that history I thought

359
00:16:08,144 --> 00:16:11,081
was so interesting in this moment where all we could

360
00:16:11,138 --> 00:16:13,171
talk about with regard to marriages,

361
00:16:13,171 --> 00:16:15,695
how good it was and how important it was that

362
00:16:15,751 --> 00:16:18,780
we either expand marriage to include same sex couples.

363
00:16:18,780 --> 00:16:21,393
Or we keep marriage just for opposite sex.

364
00:16:21,393 --> 00:16:24,758
Couples known was actually talking about this is a kind

365
00:16:24,819 --> 00:16:28,123
of regulation of form of discipline and those who live

366
00:16:28,184 --> 00:16:30,631
their lives outside of marriage I think.

367
00:16:30,631 --> 00:16:31,907
See it all the time.

368
00:16:31,907 --> 00:16:35,715
But we weren't really thinking about how marriage itself could

369
00:16:35,776 --> 00:16:37,803
be a mode of imposing discipline.

370
00:16:37,803 --> 00:16:40,294
And so it was like a historical article.

371
00:16:40,294 --> 00:16:41,996
My husband hates the title.

372
00:16:41,996 --> 00:16:44,716
It won all of these prizes and my husband is

373
00:16:44,778 --> 00:16:45,643
a great title.

374
00:16:45,643 --> 00:16:48,107
I have to tell you that the title I mean

375
00:16:48,169 --> 00:16:50,140
it's Bob and I read the article,

376
00:16:50,140 --> 00:16:53,369
the peace it. What I found so interesting is it

377
00:16:53,437 --> 00:16:55,292
it was hiding in Plainview.

378
00:16:55,292 --> 00:16:58,932
You you took something that was right here and just

379
00:16:59,003 --> 00:17:00,288
shifted awareness.

380
00:17:00,288 --> 00:17:01,977
I was How do I not see?

381
00:17:01,977 --> 00:17:03,736
I'm in a divorce lawyer.

382
00:17:03,736 --> 00:17:06,750
I've no I couldn't. How did I not see this

383
00:17:06,822 --> 00:17:07,324
before?

384
00:17:07,324 --> 00:17:09,787
I didn't know this seduction laws,

385
00:17:09,787 --> 00:17:13,286
which I thought were. I mean they're all gone now

386
00:17:13,358 --> 00:17:14,572
it's fascinating.

387
00:17:14,572 --> 00:17:16,190
Like you know, sort of.

388
00:17:16,190 --> 00:17:19,006
You know, view into a time gone by.

389
00:17:19,006 --> 00:17:23,450
That underlines though a lot of how the institution came

390
00:17:23,530 --> 00:17:24,482
to be right.

391
00:17:24,482 --> 00:17:28,422
The laws are gone, but the remnants of how society

392
00:17:28,501 --> 00:17:32,362
views this and the things that you outlined in in

393
00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,277
the larvae piece are are seen today,

394
00:17:35,277 --> 00:17:38,791
alive and well even in the way we joke about

395
00:17:38,870 --> 00:17:39,110
it.

396
00:17:39,110 --> 00:17:41,691
You know the old ball and chain,

397
00:17:41,691 --> 00:17:45,186
I mean like. Real, I mean they definitely understood it

398
00:17:45,249 --> 00:17:48,553
and that way or Mae West marriage is an institution.

399
00:17:48,553 --> 00:17:50,959
But who wants to be institutionalized?

400
00:17:50,959 --> 00:17:53,550
I'm not ready for an institution when we,

401
00:17:53,550 --> 00:17:56,965
when we read this and yesterday were tossing around the

402
00:17:57,028 --> 00:18:00,008
Mae West quote in when we were prepping for this

403
00:18:00,070 --> 00:18:02,989
and I want to throw out there a recommendation.

404
00:18:02,989 --> 00:18:06,060
This is a law review article that anybody can and

405
00:18:06,123 --> 00:18:06,875
should read.

406
00:18:06,875 --> 00:18:09,713
It's really written. Let me ask the question.

407
00:18:09,713 --> 00:18:12,860
Did you write this? Realizing that like it'll be in

408
00:18:12,921 --> 00:18:13,600
our review?

409
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:18,170
But non lawyers can read this and really love it.

410
00:18:18,170 --> 00:18:21,647
So I don't think any law professor has any illusions

411
00:18:21,714 --> 00:18:25,325
that anyone but LA law students or law professors will

412
00:18:25,392 --> 00:18:26,462
read their work.

413
00:18:26,462 --> 00:18:29,974
I was actually surprised by how many people did read

414
00:18:30,041 --> 00:18:30,244
it.

415
00:18:30,244 --> 00:18:34,727
Apparently when you Google Seduction it comes up almost immediately

416
00:18:34,794 --> 00:18:38,072
'cause there isn't a lot written about seduction,

417
00:18:38,072 --> 00:18:39,863
but a couple of years ago.

418
00:18:39,863 --> 00:18:42,384
I think this was in maybe 2013 or 14.

419
00:18:42,384 --> 00:18:45,350
I gotta call out of the blue from a producer

420
00:18:45,417 --> 00:18:46,563
for this TV show.

421
00:18:46,563 --> 00:18:48,620
Who do you think you are where?

422
00:18:48,620 --> 00:18:52,556
They sort of research a celebrities genealogy and you know

423
00:18:52,624 --> 00:18:56,085
they do like like they bring the celebrity back and

424
00:18:56,153 --> 00:18:59,478
they sort of step through the family tree and you

425
00:18:59,478 --> 00:19:03,187
know, identify some kind of problem an use genealogy to

426
00:19:03,254 --> 00:19:05,210
sort of hone in on it anyway.

427
00:19:05,210 --> 00:19:08,956
They were looking at a celebrity's family history and her

428
00:19:09,022 --> 00:19:12,505
great great grandmother had had been married to a man

429
00:19:12,571 --> 00:19:16,317
who had been convicted of seduction an you know involving

430
00:19:16,317 --> 00:19:19,650
the great great grandmother and so they were like.

431
00:19:19,650 --> 00:19:21,414
If you tell us about this,

432
00:19:21,414 --> 00:19:24,834
I told him what I knew about seduction statutes they

433
00:19:24,900 --> 00:19:28,451
sent over a bunch of primary documents from an archive

434
00:19:28,517 --> 00:19:31,345
in Arkansas that they wanted me to look at.

435
00:19:31,345 --> 00:19:32,978
And so I looked at them.

436
00:19:32,978 --> 00:19:36,350
I sort of explain the documents to them and then.

437
00:19:36,350 --> 00:19:39,060
I think maybe like 2 weeks went by and they

438
00:19:39,123 --> 00:19:40,068
called me back,

439
00:19:40,068 --> 00:19:43,071
wanted me to appear on the show to actually step

440
00:19:43,134 --> 00:19:46,638
through the documents with the celebrity and I was like,

441
00:19:46,638 --> 00:19:48,931
Oh you know? Sure, that sounds cool.

442
00:19:48,931 --> 00:19:52,064
Wound up going to Arkansas like the middle of like

443
00:19:52,127 --> 00:19:54,508
Arkansas and meeting Jennifer Goodwin.

444
00:19:54,508 --> 00:19:56,243
He used to be on that show.

445
00:19:56,243 --> 00:19:59,440
Big love and it was her great great grandmother and

446
00:19:59,502 --> 00:20:01,759
you know we take this episode right.

447
00:20:01,759 --> 00:20:05,210
I've got white gloves on and in the archives explaining

448
00:20:05,272 --> 00:20:06,841
to her what seduction is,

449
00:20:06,841 --> 00:20:08,390
how this is very cool so.

450
00:20:08,390 --> 00:20:09,604
It, I mean it was.

451
00:20:09,604 --> 00:20:12,577
It was nice that it actually had a lice beyond

452
00:20:12,642 --> 00:20:14,969
the law review and Jennifer Goodwin.

453
00:20:14,969 --> 00:20:17,835
I think at one point she was sort of talking

454
00:20:17,900 --> 00:20:18,291
about.

455
00:20:18,291 --> 00:20:22,023
Wouldn't this make a good movie like my grandmother's life

456
00:20:22,087 --> 00:20:25,240
would make a good movie and it's like it actually

457
00:20:25,304 --> 00:20:27,106
would make a terrific movie.

458
00:20:27,106 --> 00:20:30,364
It is a great piece everybody should go on Google,

459
00:20:30,364 --> 00:20:32,280
find it really honest to God.

460
00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,601
So God, Jeff, you know really just great peace God,

461
00:20:35,601 --> 00:20:39,388
you ask you. A different question was so we're taping

462
00:20:39,459 --> 00:20:42,746
us the time of COVID-19 And the issues around,

463
00:20:42,746 --> 00:20:48,013
um, the disparity in the country are really they've been

464
00:20:48,107 --> 00:20:50,176
there for a long time,

465
00:20:50,176 --> 00:20:53,519
but there are now more spotlighted,

466
00:20:53,519 --> 00:20:59,828
an political civil unrest seems like something that's more likely

467
00:20:59,925 --> 00:21:05,264
more and more likely if the country underwent a radical

468
00:21:05,361 --> 00:21:06,040
change.

469
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:07,160
And.

470
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:11,880
Leaders came to you and said it's time for a

471
00:21:11,940 --> 00:21:14,881
new constitution and we would like you to be part

472
00:21:14,941 --> 00:21:15,901
of writing that.

473
00:21:15,901 --> 00:21:19,678
Where would you start? So it's funny that you should

474
00:21:19,751 --> 00:21:23,383
ask this because I'm involved in kind of a project

475
00:21:23,456 --> 00:21:27,233
that's sort of just a project with different groups,

476
00:21:27,233 --> 00:21:30,126
sort of like how would you sort of fix or

477
00:21:30,197 --> 00:21:31,820
amend the constitution?

478
00:21:31,820 --> 00:21:36,660
and I actually don't think the constitution as it's written.

479
00:21:36,660 --> 00:21:43,668
Is. Completely incompatible with a vision of progressive government or

480
00:21:43,768 --> 00:21:45,870
progressive policies.

481
00:21:45,870 --> 00:21:48,629
Yeah, the constitution as it was written,

482
00:21:48,629 --> 00:21:52,231
was meant to be. A document that provided for a

483
00:21:52,308 --> 00:21:56,446
limited federal government and this is sort of born of

484
00:21:56,523 --> 00:21:59,282
the framers experience with Britain.

485
00:21:59,282 --> 00:22:02,464
During the American Revolution and before,

486
00:22:02,464 --> 00:22:05,595
you know. They had this period where you know they

487
00:22:05,657 --> 00:22:09,038
just come out of the American Revolution and they were

488
00:22:09,101 --> 00:22:12,795
basically a Confederation of 13 States and they couldn't do

489
00:22:12,795 --> 00:22:16,052
anything on a national scale because they were really 13

490
00:22:16,110 --> 00:22:17,215
individual nations,

491
00:22:17,215 --> 00:22:18,879
so they couldn't coin money.

492
00:22:18,879 --> 00:22:21,463
They couldn't negotiate with foreign powers.

493
00:22:21,463 --> 00:22:24,218
They had to figure out a way to be centralized,

494
00:22:24,218 --> 00:22:28,172
but they were deeply, deeply worried about being centralized because

495
00:22:28,230 --> 00:22:28,753
for them,

496
00:22:28,753 --> 00:22:32,828
centralization equated with the aggrandizement of power in a parliament

497
00:22:32,886 --> 00:22:34,780
or some sort of legislative body.

498
00:22:34,780 --> 00:22:37,738
That could then do things like pass laws like the

499
00:22:37,799 --> 00:22:40,515
Stamp Act and the tea act and Whatnot so they

500
00:22:40,576 --> 00:22:44,017
were really worried about what centralization would mean,

501
00:22:44,017 --> 00:22:47,171
like they knew they needed to centralise in some way

502
00:22:47,232 --> 00:22:49,415
just to be able to conduct business.

503
00:22:49,415 --> 00:22:53,115
But they were really worried that centralization would be the

504
00:22:53,176 --> 00:22:54,814
same as aggrandizing power,

505
00:22:54,814 --> 00:22:58,036
either in parliament or in an executive figure like a

506
00:22:58,096 --> 00:22:59,312
King or a president,

507
00:22:59,312 --> 00:23:02,431
and so the whole constitution is basically set up to

508
00:23:02,491 --> 00:23:06,390
allow for centralization while also minimizing or mitigating the.

509
00:23:06,390 --> 00:23:09,873
Risk of aggrandizing power in any one branch of government,

510
00:23:09,873 --> 00:23:12,857
right? So you know, it's not surprising that of all

511
00:23:12,915 --> 00:23:16,484
of the provisions of the constitution article one which deals

512
00:23:16,543 --> 00:23:17,362
with Congress,

513
00:23:17,362 --> 00:23:19,975
is the most sort of explicit and elaborated,

514
00:23:19,975 --> 00:23:21,658
and they basically say like,

515
00:23:21,658 --> 00:23:23,864
so we're going to have this Congress.

516
00:23:23,864 --> 00:23:26,361
Here are all of the things that it can do,

517
00:23:26,361 --> 00:23:28,741
and it can't do anything more than this,

518
00:23:28,741 --> 00:23:31,702
right? That's specific, like this is all you get to

519
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,359
do Congress because they're so worried about a parliament that

520
00:23:35,417 --> 00:23:36,520
will be tyrannical.

521
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,402
And then they get to the president in its elaborated,

522
00:23:39,402 --> 00:23:41,964
but not the way that Dave elaborated Article 1.

523
00:23:41,964 --> 00:23:43,992
So there are definitely more worried,

524
00:23:43,992 --> 00:23:46,910
I think, about what Congress could do and how Congress

525
00:23:46,964 --> 00:23:48,369
might be over encroaching.

526
00:23:48,369 --> 00:23:50,451
But they're very clear. Like you know,

527
00:23:50,451 --> 00:23:52,212
there's going to be a president.

528
00:23:52,212 --> 00:23:54,080
Here's how it's going to run here.

529
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,832
Its limits. The one branch that they really kind of

530
00:23:56,886 --> 00:23:59,044
just sort of leave up to interpretation,

531
00:23:59,044 --> 00:24:01,738
is the Judicial Branch, and they have no idea that

532
00:24:01,791 --> 00:24:04,377
the judiciary is going to evolve in the way that

533
00:24:04,431 --> 00:24:04,862
it does.

534
00:24:04,862 --> 00:24:06,890
Alexander Hamilton calls it the least.

535
00:24:06,890 --> 00:24:10,856
Dangerous branch and Alexander Bickel later made that the title

536
00:24:10,919 --> 00:24:13,563
of his book about sort of the power of the

537
00:24:13,626 --> 00:24:14,256
judiciary.

538
00:24:14,256 --> 00:24:18,174
Like ironically, the least dangerous branch is perhaps in some

539
00:24:18,237 --> 00:24:19,375
ways as important,

540
00:24:19,375 --> 00:24:21,934
maybe more important than the other two.

541
00:24:21,934 --> 00:24:24,510
So I think if you sort of start from that

542
00:24:24,573 --> 00:24:28,658
frame that the constitution is about dividing power between those

543
00:24:28,721 --> 00:24:31,297
three branches of the federal government,

544
00:24:31,297 --> 00:24:35,230
and then also dividing power between the federal government and

545
00:24:35,292 --> 00:24:37,290
the States and in that division.

546
00:24:37,290 --> 00:24:40,811
No group, no no power cannot be isolated and controlled

547
00:24:40,875 --> 00:24:44,075
or consolidated in anyone area and in that kind of

548
00:24:44,139 --> 00:24:47,788
division and diffusion of power lies the Liberty that the

549
00:24:47,788 --> 00:24:51,159
people rely on. I think that's actually quite right,

550
00:24:51,159 --> 00:24:54,838
you know? I sound like a libertarian or conservative when

551
00:24:54,903 --> 00:24:55,613
I say this,

552
00:24:55,613 --> 00:24:58,158
but I think if you take that seriously,

553
00:24:58,158 --> 00:25:01,148
you have to be really trouble about something.

554
00:25:01,148 --> 00:25:06,492
Partisan. Gerrymandering, which apparently is a non justiciable political question.

555
00:25:06,492 --> 00:25:08,210
The courts can't deal with.

556
00:25:08,210 --> 00:25:11,733
I think you have to be really concerned that Congress

557
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,988
has been hobbled in addressing voting rights issues because the

558
00:25:16,055 --> 00:25:19,844
court has struck down key provisions of the Voting Rights

559
00:25:19,844 --> 00:25:21,893
Act. Mean the basic structure,

560
00:25:21,893 --> 00:25:25,684
which I think would uphold those provisions of the Voting

561
00:25:25,751 --> 00:25:29,675
Rights Act and would require federal courts to intervene to

562
00:25:29,741 --> 00:25:32,601
do something about partisan gerrymandering.

563
00:25:32,601 --> 00:25:36,435
All of those are structural issues that lend themselves to

564
00:25:36,501 --> 00:25:38,220
the disenfranchisement of.

565
00:25:38,220 --> 00:25:40,531
Individuals like the loss of Liberty,

566
00:25:40,531 --> 00:25:44,110
and that's the whole thing that the constitution was meant

567
00:25:44,172 --> 00:25:44,727
to avoid.

568
00:25:44,727 --> 00:25:47,695
And so I think if you take the original document

569
00:25:47,757 --> 00:25:48,375
seriously,

570
00:25:48,375 --> 00:25:50,686
it's not a conservative constitution,

571
00:25:50,686 --> 00:25:54,384
and it's not a libertarian constitution is not a progressive

572
00:25:54,446 --> 00:25:55,247
constitution,

573
00:25:55,247 --> 00:25:59,300
it's a structural document that understands that if the structures

574
00:25:59,362 --> 00:26:01,511
of democracy or operating properly,

575
00:26:01,511 --> 00:26:04,247
the people will be able to exercise Liberty,

576
00:26:04,247 --> 00:26:07,105
protect their rights in the political process,

577
00:26:07,105 --> 00:26:09,720
an enjoy the Liberty that was contemplated.

578
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,802
To be clear, like I'm not absolving them of everything

579
00:26:12,859 --> 00:26:14,114
like the Constitution.

580
00:26:14,114 --> 00:26:18,283
Also explicitly contemplates the perpetuation and maintenance of slavery,

581
00:26:18,283 --> 00:26:21,406
right? So you know, in Article 1 there's 3/5 compromise

582
00:26:21,463 --> 00:26:25,494
the discussion of maintaining the transatlantic slave trade until 1808,

583
00:26:25,494 --> 00:26:28,781
and then will shift to a self reproducing slave population

584
00:26:28,837 --> 00:26:31,671
and then an article for there is the provision for

585
00:26:31,727 --> 00:26:35,184
the rendition of fugitive slaves back to slaveholding states.

586
00:26:35,184 --> 00:26:37,365
So I mean like if we had to start like

587
00:26:37,422 --> 00:26:38,283
cutting things,

588
00:26:38,283 --> 00:26:39,890
I probably cut all of those.

589
00:26:39,890 --> 00:26:43,317
Provisions just sort of explicitly get them out of the

590
00:26:43,380 --> 00:26:44,205
constitution,

591
00:26:44,205 --> 00:26:46,269
but the premise of the document,

592
00:26:46,269 --> 00:26:48,780
I think, is sound. This idea of.

593
00:26:48,780 --> 00:26:53,719
Diffusing power and having a structure that lends itself to

594
00:26:53,803 --> 00:26:55,645
Democratic engagement,

595
00:26:55,645 --> 00:26:57,795
I think is exactly right.

596
00:26:57,795 --> 00:27:00,906
So if we if we can ask you sort of

597
00:27:00,998 --> 00:27:04,749
this to to bring things to a close if you

598
00:27:04,841 --> 00:27:05,390
could.

599
00:27:05,390 --> 00:27:09,235
We like entire navigate big if you could or had

600
00:27:09,317 --> 00:27:09,562
to,

601
00:27:09,562 --> 00:27:15,026
um, sacrificed your life be killed to accomplish one goal

602
00:27:15,122 --> 00:27:16,560
in our culture.

603
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:17,500
What would it be?

604
00:27:23,540 --> 00:27:27,025
To die for this like I would actually die for

605
00:27:27,103 --> 00:27:27,490
this.

606
00:27:32,730 --> 00:27:35,040
I don't know it's like.

607
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:36,228
Take it to do you.

608
00:27:36,228 --> 00:27:38,915
Sure you could die twice on iron advocate?

609
00:27:38,915 --> 00:27:40,665
OK, you've already done it.

610
00:27:40,665 --> 00:27:42,920
Once you have another one.

611
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,697
So I I think one thing I think I legitimately

612
00:27:46,781 --> 00:27:47,536
die over.

613
00:27:47,536 --> 00:27:50,090
It's just sort of.

614
00:27:50,090 --> 00:27:54,286
Just the whole question of gender and race equality,

615
00:27:54,286 --> 00:27:57,540
like. I mean I think about them.

616
00:27:57,540 --> 00:28:02,849
Again, intersectionally, I'm raising a black boy and a black

617
00:28:02,938 --> 00:28:03,380
girl.

618
00:28:03,380 --> 00:28:06,104
I I like whether it's an education or in the

619
00:28:06,165 --> 00:28:07,651
criminal justice system,

620
00:28:07,651 --> 00:28:11,327
like I just. There are times I just literally overwhelmed

621
00:28:11,391 --> 00:28:14,615
with the world I'm sending my children out into an

622
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,130
I don't even know how to process that.

623
00:28:17,130 --> 00:28:19,260
So.

624
00:28:19,260 --> 00:28:21,846
I don't know. I don't even know what the answer.

625
00:28:21,846 --> 00:28:24,168
I'm just sort of say broadly it just to me,

626
00:28:24,168 --> 00:28:27,257
seems like such an insurmountable problem to like the kind

627
00:28:27,310 --> 00:28:29,654
of stuff our kids are going to be based with

628
00:28:29,707 --> 00:28:29,867
an,

629
00:28:29,867 --> 00:28:33,139
you know, there's been progress certainly over our lifetimes,

630
00:28:33,139 --> 00:28:34,380
but.

631
00:28:34,380 --> 00:28:36,701
Not enough, and I'm not as quickly as it should

632
00:28:36,751 --> 00:28:36,899
be.

633
00:28:36,899 --> 00:28:40,028
I mean like. I want my children be able to

634
00:28:40,103 --> 00:28:41,444
go running freely.

635
00:28:41,444 --> 00:28:43,920
Uhm, I want my kids to live in a world

636
00:28:43,985 --> 00:28:47,503
where you know they don't wear masks because there's a

637
00:28:47,568 --> 00:28:48,610
global pandemic.

638
00:28:48,610 --> 00:28:50,999
But if they did have to wear a mask,

639
00:28:50,999 --> 00:28:54,457
they weren't obliged to tip their mass to avoid being

640
00:28:54,522 --> 00:28:57,067
assumed to be a miscreant or something.

641
00:28:57,067 --> 00:28:59,650
So I think that would be the first one.

642
00:28:59,650 --> 00:29:02,620
And then I think the second would be just like

643
00:29:02,684 --> 00:29:05,008
I think I would like die for us as a

644
00:29:05,073 --> 00:29:07,720
society to recognize the degree to which.

645
00:29:09,830 --> 00:29:15,067
Women, largely women's labor, actually subsidizes the productivity of our

646
00:29:15,139 --> 00:29:19,443
economy in ways that are invisible and utterly unrecognized,

647
00:29:19,443 --> 00:29:21,223
like and it. Just to me,

648
00:29:21,223 --> 00:29:24,830
has been brought home by this pandemic.

649
00:29:24,830 --> 00:29:27,829
Like my ability to do my work depends so much

650
00:29:27,896 --> 00:29:30,894
on being able to send my kids to school where

651
00:29:30,961 --> 00:29:34,160
I can count on them being educated in a rational

652
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:38,112
and responsible way. It's like school doesn't just serve an

653
00:29:38,179 --> 00:29:39,586
educational function,

654
00:29:39,586 --> 00:29:41,901
it is actually a caregiving place.

655
00:29:41,901 --> 00:29:46,526
It serves a caregiving function for so many working parents

656
00:29:46,605 --> 00:29:46,840
and

657
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,825
These teachers are underpaid under resourced,

658
00:29:49,825 --> 00:29:52,356
and I think we're seeing it right now,

659
00:29:52,356 --> 00:29:55,228
like how much we depend on them like our own

660
00:29:55,294 --> 00:29:59,798
productivity and whatever we're doing that contributes to the economy

661
00:29:59,863 --> 00:30:03,323
is actually dependent on being able to leave our kids

662
00:30:03,323 --> 00:30:06,796
in the care of these professionals who should be paid

663
00:30:06,861 --> 00:30:10,072
and rewarded like professionals in the same vein,

664
00:30:10,072 --> 00:30:13,099
I think about. You know the ways in which I

665
00:30:13,170 --> 00:30:16,619
have in many ways subsidized my husband's career.

666
00:30:16,619 --> 00:30:19,852
Like, you know, law firms depend on the unpaid labor

667
00:30:19,914 --> 00:30:23,210
of those who are supporting the lawyers that work for

668
00:30:23,272 --> 00:30:23,583
them,

669
00:30:23,583 --> 00:30:25,801
and we don't talk about that a lot,

670
00:30:25,801 --> 00:30:27,897
you know. And it works both ways.

671
00:30:27,897 --> 00:30:31,525
My husband subsidized my career and lots of different ways

672
00:30:31,588 --> 00:30:32,088
as well,

673
00:30:32,088 --> 00:30:35,415
like taking the bar in three different jurisdictions,

674
00:30:35,415 --> 00:30:38,532
moving all of that, but I don't think we recognize

675
00:30:38,595 --> 00:30:40,777
the degree to which we have put of-

676
00:30:40,777 --> 00:30:45,839
on the family. The work of accommodating the dependence that

677
00:30:45,924 --> 00:30:50,311
has to be accommodated if we're all to be productive

678
00:30:50,395 --> 00:30:53,770
and contributing members of the economy.

679
00:30:53,770 --> 00:30:56,615
That's a good place to stop and I just wanted

680
00:30:56,678 --> 00:30:59,333
to put a pin in that because there's a lot

681
00:30:59,396 --> 00:31:02,873
of opportunities for people in the days and years ahead

682
00:31:02,873 --> 00:31:05,824
to shift, and this is an ongoing conversation.

683
00:31:05,824 --> 00:31:08,649
We're going to have you back again sometime.

684
00:31:08,649 --> 00:31:10,846
Thank you very very much for this.

685
00:31:10,846 --> 00:31:14,041
Alright, thanks so much for having me who is super

686
00:31:14,105 --> 00:31:14,361
fun.

687
00:31:14,361 --> 00:31:15,994
Thank you for joining us.

688
00:31:15,994 --> 00:31:19,384
We hope you have enjoyed this episode of iron advocate

689
00:31:19,447 --> 00:31:22,962
and that you take what you've learned an integrated into

690
00:31:23,025 --> 00:31:24,720
your own personal practice.

691
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:30,294
As always, we leave you with a minute of mindfulness.

692
00:31:30,294 --> 00:31:36,020
Breathe in. Breathe out and we'll see you next time.

693
00:31:56,890 --> 00:32:05,390
Stop. Stop.

694
00:32:30,860 --> 00:32:41,700
Bella No.