Iron Advocate

Unlock the inner game of advocacy, the winning mindset, psychology and personal habits of highly successful attorneys. We are warriors. Litigation is a form of combat and hardship always accompanies battle. Fear. Dread. Vulnerability. Iron Advocates embrace those feelings while living an examined professional and personal life. For 26 years, Jeff Riebel and Bob Levant have engaged in a daily conversation about life in and out of the law. Each is a seasoned litigator. Bob has successfully defended cases including capital murder and secured numerous multimillion dollar verdicts and settlements in civil rights cases. Jeff typically represents clients in which marital estates worth tens of millions and sometimes billions of dollars are in dispute. His clients include CEOs, venture capitalists and other highly successful and well-known Californians. Join Jeff, Bob and their guests as they discuss how to kill it in the practice of law without it killing you.

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Iron Advocate

Ep 4 - Steven Brill

April 03, 2020 • Steven Brill • Season 1 • Episode 4

In 2019, Steven Brill defended Vitaly Korchevsky in a groundbreaking federal prosecution in a media-frenzied trial in New York City. Steve’s client, an internationally-known minister originally from Kazakhstan, was alleged to have used Russian and Ukranian hackers to facilitate insider trading. The case drew international attention throughout. Steve litigated with the backdrop of the ongoing Mueller investigation and claims of Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election. Steve recounts his career from New York Public Defender to the co-founder of a litigation firm and how he handles the challenges and complexities of a stressful NYC law practice. Steve discusses how his use of mindfulness techniques, following a disciplined daily routine and making music create a work/life balance that maximize his love for the law. Enjoy this episode of Iron Advocate as we continue to explore how lawyers can kill it in the law without it killin us. You can find Steve on the net at SBCriminallawyers.com or SullivanBrillfirm.com or email him at Steven.Brill@sullivanbrill.com

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In 2019, Steven Brill defended Fatality Court Czapski in a

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groundbreaking federal prosecution and a media frenzy trial in New

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York City.

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Steve's client and internationally known ministar originally from cosmic Stan,

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was alleged to have use Russian and Ukrainian hackers to

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facilitate insider trading.

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The case drew international attention throughout Steve,

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litigated with the backdrop of the ongoing Muller investigation and

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claims of Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election.

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Steve recounts his career from New York City public defender

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to the cofounder of a litigation firm and how he

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handles the challenges and complexities of a stressful NYC law

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practice. Steve discusses how his use of mindfulness techniques following

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a discipline,

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daily routine, and making music.

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Create a life work balance that maximize his love for

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the law.

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Enjoy this episode of our own advocate as we continue

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to explore how lawyers can kill it in the law

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without it killing us.

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You're listening to iron advocate,

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the podcast dedicated to you,

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the trial attorney. Visionary Warrior Unfiltered no holds barred.

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Iron advocate. Join Bob live at Jeffrey Bowl and today's

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top legal minds on a journey to discover how to

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kill it in the law without it killing you.

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Because being the best advocate for others begins with being

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the best advocate for yourself.

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How are you, Steve? I'm doing great.

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Thank you for having me.

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Steven, we're going to jump right in,

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um, in 2019, uh, you represented.

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But Alec Court schefsky, who was charged in the first

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federal prosecution that alleged foreign hacking of new sites to

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facilitate insider trading.

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You litigated against a backdrop of Russian interference and hacking

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in the 2016 presidential election,

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as well as with a client who had a national

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following as a pastor.

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Those things certainly create complexity with the jury pool,

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as well as immense pressure.

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From the clients, many worldwide supporters.

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How did that make you feel as an advocate and

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as a person?

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Yeah, so uh, I would say for as long as

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the case,

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uh, existed in my Furman in my life I would.

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It wouldn't be any exaggeration to say that defined me

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as a as an attorney and as a person.

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Uhm, I have vivid recollections of going to sleep and

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thinking about that case and waking up in the middle

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of the night and thinking about that case.

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I can recall a drafting several emails out of sheer

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panic in the middle of the night.

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Two people that I would try.

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I was trying to case with to my client,

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so literally waking up in the middle of the night

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to draft an email.

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Yes, uh, in fact, being kidded by by trial team

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when they saw the time stamp of the actual email,

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yes. What was that? Was this span of time from

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when you were retained?

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Until the case went to trial,

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approximately right. So as far as the judge was concerned,

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it should have been a lot sooner,

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but, uh, I would say it was about through 3

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ish,

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three years, uh, from time of arrest,

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the time of trial and that was becausr,

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uhm, the enormous nature of the discovery that was that

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was involved in the case.

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Uninterruptible pressure tell the listeners what your client was charged

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with?

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Sure, so essentially, my client was charged with wire fraud,

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conspiracy to commit wire fraud,

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which stemmed from the allegation.

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Now he's been convicted, but the allegation that he had.

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It with others stolen. Uh press releases hacked.

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Press releases from Newswire servers and then,

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um, when those newswire what was hacked,

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was disseminated to him and others he was alleged to

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have traded on the information that was contained within those

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those press releases and according to the conspiracy that went

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on for about five years before he was caught interested.

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So Steve and the the.

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Mr Korchev ski reside in the states.

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Can you tell the listeners the allegations in terms of

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where the hackers were and how that connection was made?

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What were those allegations about?

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Yeah, so the hackers were based out of Russia proper

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and Ukraine and there was A.

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A middle man that was that was associated with those

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hackers that had a relationship with some of the Co

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conspirators.

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In this case, the those coconspirators became cooperating witnesses,

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but that was the connection between the hackers and the

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ultimate conspirators in the states.

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So, can you give the list was an idea,

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timeline wise, of how this coincided with the Muller investigation.

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The international news about. Hacking affecting our electoral system and

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ultimately,

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how does that impact your stress level and your concerns

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about how to deal with the case and the client

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situation?

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Yeah, so how it coincided?

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It was a direct hit it the case started in

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2015,

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so we're not quite at where we are now and

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what we know about what happened during that election,

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but certainly as the case went on and as the

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case was heading towards trial.

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Absolutely. Those two things calling cited completely.

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In fact, as far as,

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uh, as part of our trial preparation,

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an motions that we filed with the judge and with

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the cord with respect to motions in limine.

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That was a huge part of it.

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For example, we wanted the judge to preclude the word

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hacking,

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actually looking back, it seems kind of ridiculous,

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but we wanted them. Might as well try,

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yeah? I think judge the judge actually thought so that

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it was a somewhat ridiculous and impossible,

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but it was so pervasive.

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The vernacular of all of us that we thought once

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the jury here is hacking.

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Using the word is like some sort of an admission

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under the the context of what the nation was hearing

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everyday definitely,

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and we felt that way and we felt we felt

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like we were justified to ask that the jury should

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be told of another word.

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Of course, judge would ask what other word would you

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like?

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Mr Brillon. They would not know that just sucks though.

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You can do about it.

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Yeah, a today show every morning.

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CNN, Fox News. Whatever you're watching your hearing about the

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Russian hackers and you're going into the federal courthouse in

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Brooklyn,

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right? To deal with allegations of Russian that that's right.

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Fast forward to I recall one juror coming in.

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I think maybe on Flag Day with a flag on

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his tie so you know our assumption was.

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He's very patriotic, and, uh,

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it may be sent you a message?

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Yes, yes absolutely. In fact,

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that was a conversation that we had that he was

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sending us a message which caused us some.

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What do you? What did you do with that?

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Yeah, I remember feeling very uncomfortable is what I did

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with it and looking at my tried that case with

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my sister actually who's also a criminal defense lawyer who

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is immensely important to the case.

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But I remember she and I looking at each other

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when when that guy came in and us feeling like.

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He certainly sending us a message and,

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uhm, I don't. I don't recall doing anything other than

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feeling a little uncomfortable and not not being able to

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make an actual motion that this is something that is

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negative for the case. We didn't know other than what

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he was wearing,

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what he said. Yeah, so Steve.

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Quick question, how many? How many Co conspirators were there?

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Hello. So, uh, uh, there.

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Well how many that went to trial just another just

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one more.

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And how many turn were government witnesses?

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And the answer to that is floor turned 3 I

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believe gave testimony,

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but ultimately for were out there.

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So I want to have you set a little bit

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more of the landscape of the case and then really

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dig into kind of how you emotionally and professionally managed

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this. You you are a very successful criminal defense attorney

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in in New York and you run a small firm

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with your partner.

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The discovery that the United States government turned over.

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In this case, what was the volume first that the

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amount of discovery in a measurable way?

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Gigabytes, terabytes. Good Lord. The most I've ever seen,

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uh, let's start with that.

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UM, and we're talking about,

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uh, a double digit terabytes?

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Well, meaning it was in excess of 1020 Terabytes.

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So so anybody listening who may not be certain.

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So if it was all pieces of paper,

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a single TB is about 75 million pages.

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Yes, OK, so. Pete ESD just hearing that right?

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That's really want to go an again.

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This is you do not have a team of associates

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here.

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Can you give the listeners a sort of a little

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32nd overview of how you manage that?

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And then I want to transition in 'cause this is

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something that could drag your practice under like this could

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pull you under.

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How do you manage it?

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And then what does it do to your man?

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Like what does it do to so much to unpack

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there?

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It's a great questions, I mean.

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Um, uh, you know, go back to what I said,

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which is going to sleep with the case and waking

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up with the case every uh,

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every day, every day. And the reason for that was

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weaker.

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What period of time? Yes,

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over the course of at least two years.

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So it took an immense toll on my personal life

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and my personal state of mind,

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which is that, you know,

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day today. If you're in moments of completely unrelated to

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your farmer,

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your practice, invariably. And I guess this applies to anyone

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who has something not I could be traumatic.

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It could just be very significant in their life.

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It your mind goes back to that,

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uh, when you when you when you're when you're not

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really thinking about it.

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And that was that was quick chesky case for me

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that it was always there,

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um, and if it wasn't at some point it would

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come back at some point just basically 24/7 as any

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trial where might relate to its IT never,

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never, never goes away, but back to it related to

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your question.

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One, and so we had a lot of.

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Uh, it only say fears 'cause we weren't afraid.

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You know, in the true sense of the word,

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I'm afraid listening to Yeah,

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but we had we had I guess bouts of insecurity

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where we said are we you know I guess like

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any trial attorney are we doing the right thing?

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Are we focused on the right thing?

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Are we prepared or we going to look like fools

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if we go in there are we going to be

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able to make a case?

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Or is is our client going to be satisfied and

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so.

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Back to your question about the discovery when we're faced

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with the immense amount of discovery,

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I'm thinking a part of the reasons that I keep

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thinking about it and keep waking up to it is

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how am I going to look through all that?

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And am I doing the right thing and have I

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been prepared enough?

248
00:12:46,408 --> 00:12:48,855
Given given the amount of discovery,

249
00:12:48,855 --> 00:12:51,699
let me ask you a question about a case like

250
00:12:51,765 --> 00:12:54,741
this when it comes in because part of what we

251
00:12:54,807 --> 00:12:57,320
talk about is the business of law and.

252
00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:58,925
The stress of all of it.

253
00:12:58,925 --> 00:13:01,820
How do you on the business side?

254
00:13:01,820 --> 00:13:05,565
How do you even price a case like that to

255
00:13:05,656 --> 00:13:06,478
a client,

256
00:13:06,478 --> 00:13:12,130
right? So listen that is like a Golden question because

257
00:13:12,232 --> 00:13:13,260
I imagine.

258
00:13:13,260 --> 00:13:17,076
Is again, no matter how long you been doing it,

259
00:13:17,076 --> 00:13:20,892
you're still thinking about that in every case,

260
00:13:20,892 --> 00:13:23,041
uh? When you're thinking about that,

261
00:13:23,041 --> 00:13:25,183
you don't really in a criminal case,

262
00:13:25,183 --> 00:13:28,706
have any idea what that discovery and what that case

263
00:13:28,774 --> 00:13:29,790
might actually.

264
00:13:29,790 --> 00:13:31,781
Look like, yeah this case.

265
00:13:31,781 --> 00:13:35,099
Absolutely no clue whatsoever. I had a clue,

266
00:13:35,099 --> 00:13:37,921
but as the case went on and one of the

267
00:13:37,995 --> 00:13:42,005
arguments we had with the government was that we would

268
00:13:42,079 --> 00:13:45,718
be literally inundated and buried with discovery,

269
00:13:45,718 --> 00:13:48,447
we had no clue that that was coming.

270
00:13:48,447 --> 00:13:51,454
And in the way at which it came from the

271
00:13:51,529 --> 00:13:52,281
beginning,

272
00:13:52,281 --> 00:13:54,641
that case and how we priced it.

273
00:13:54,641 --> 00:13:57,001
You know, having a pricey case?

274
00:13:57,001 --> 00:13:58,844
I mean, you know you it.

275
00:13:58,844 --> 00:14:01,720
I think so many factors in that recipe.

276
00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:04,802
You realize that you try to think of how much

277
00:14:04,870 --> 00:14:06,377
time it will take you.

278
00:14:06,377 --> 00:14:09,168
Try to think of how many hours you try to

279
00:14:09,236 --> 00:14:13,048
think of what you're the opportunity cost will meet when

280
00:14:13,116 --> 00:14:14,341
you won't be able,

281
00:14:14,341 --> 00:14:17,716
but then you have like these real fantasy dreams,

282
00:14:17,716 --> 00:14:21,078
which is like wow. This could be from a financial

283
00:14:21,146 --> 00:14:21,901
standpoint.

284
00:14:21,901 --> 00:14:24,803
You know, a wonderful moment for the firm.

285
00:14:24,803 --> 00:14:28,515
And so it's a listers who maybe don't practice criminal

286
00:14:28,583 --> 00:14:32,700
regularly understand most criminal cases like this one or are

287
00:14:32,768 --> 00:14:33,240
priced.

288
00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:37,479
Certainly by the smaller defense firms as flat fees,

289
00:14:37,479 --> 00:14:40,886
yes, OK, and so that is part of what makes

290
00:14:40,967 --> 00:14:43,157
this such such a challenge.

291
00:14:43,157 --> 00:14:48,008
Can you also briefly touch on the international exposure you

292
00:14:48,089 --> 00:14:50,515
got and how you value that in?

293
00:14:50,515 --> 00:14:54,464
Can I just adjusted saying and I recall that what

294
00:14:54,545 --> 00:14:58,413
we had to do and perhaps listeners will have had

295
00:14:58,494 --> 00:15:00,992
this situation or will have it,

296
00:15:00,992 --> 00:15:04,511
is that be cause we were unaware of the true

297
00:15:04,591 --> 00:15:07,470
nature of the case in the discovery?

298
00:15:07,470 --> 00:15:11,176
And what was needed in order to be effective and

299
00:15:11,253 --> 00:15:14,342
to be prepared and to do his best job as

300
00:15:14,419 --> 00:15:15,114
we could?

301
00:15:15,114 --> 00:15:18,894
I remember repricing page with a new fee after as

302
00:15:18,971 --> 00:15:22,365
the case went on in the middle in the middle

303
00:15:22,442 --> 00:15:23,599
of preparation.

304
00:15:23,599 --> 00:15:27,831
I remember repricing the fee and realizing that we were

305
00:15:27,908 --> 00:15:31,601
going to have to request from the client that we

306
00:15:31,678 --> 00:15:35,218
get additional fees in order to in order to be

307
00:15:35,218 --> 00:15:39,096
able to continue at the rate we're going without a

308
00:15:39,173 --> 00:15:40,569
hard conversation.

309
00:15:40,569 --> 00:15:42,480
Yeah, I mean, for lawyer.

310
00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:45,194
You can have a podcast on fees alone.

311
00:15:45,194 --> 00:15:47,122
It you know that you know,

312
00:15:47,122 --> 00:15:48,908
uh, the old adage of uh,

313
00:15:48,908 --> 00:15:51,764
of lawyers that I've met along the way,

314
00:15:51,764 --> 00:15:55,050
which is really when it comes down the money.

315
00:15:55,050 --> 00:15:57,906
Most lawyers will say I hate that part.

316
00:15:57,906 --> 00:15:59,692
I can't stand that part.

317
00:15:59,692 --> 00:16:02,795
I give it to someone else in the office and

318
00:16:02,867 --> 00:16:06,042
they price it my my pitch which which it was

319
00:16:06,114 --> 00:16:06,691
sincere,

320
00:16:06,691 --> 00:16:09,191
which is when I sit down a client,

321
00:16:09,191 --> 00:16:12,833
I say listen. I've spent my career helping people.

322
00:16:12,833 --> 00:16:14,190
I want to help you.

323
00:16:14,190 --> 00:16:17,251
I want to save your life now that's gonna cost,

324
00:16:17,251 --> 00:16:18,909
uh, this amount of $1000.

325
00:16:18,909 --> 00:16:21,651
You know it's it's it's counter intuitive.

326
00:16:21,651 --> 00:16:24,202
So um, you ask if it's a hard question.

327
00:16:24,202 --> 00:16:26,945
Are hard conversation? Yeah, it's awkward.

328
00:16:26,945 --> 00:16:29,432
It's always awkward from some lawyers.

329
00:16:29,432 --> 00:16:31,026
It's not awkward at all.

330
00:16:31,026 --> 00:16:33,322
Some lawyers are very good at that.

331
00:16:33,322 --> 00:16:36,405
About money. They see it very much as a business

332
00:16:36,469 --> 00:16:40,323
and they are separating the emotion with the connection with

333
00:16:40,388 --> 00:16:42,186
the client and the business.

334
00:16:42,186 --> 00:16:45,120
And that makes them very good business people.

335
00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:49,114
Uhm, I don't necessarily. Not necessarily an expert on that,

336
00:16:49,114 --> 00:16:50,620
and so it's more of a.

337
00:16:50,620 --> 00:16:54,156
It's a little more emotional on little less business,

338
00:16:54,156 --> 00:16:56,906
so it's a little harder for conversation.

339
00:16:56,906 --> 00:16:59,564
But in this case I had to because it was

340
00:16:59,630 --> 00:17:01,358
a matter of like survival.

341
00:17:01,358 --> 00:17:03,715
So suddenly ash different question.

342
00:17:03,715 --> 00:17:06,924
This case, which is getting international press,

343
00:17:06,924 --> 00:17:09,740
is that correct? Yes, and you had.

344
00:17:09,740 --> 00:17:12,037
I assume regular press inquiries.

345
00:17:12,037 --> 00:17:14,267
US Press New York Capital Press,

346
00:17:14,267 --> 00:17:17,503
capital of the world. Lot of press in this case

347
00:17:17,572 --> 00:17:17,916
yeah,

348
00:17:17,916 --> 00:17:23,937
yes this cases. A sensually occupying you in some fashion,

349
00:17:23,937 --> 00:17:28,483
24/7 as you said. And your sister is involved in

350
00:17:28,578 --> 00:17:29,430
the case,

351
00:17:29,430 --> 00:17:31,630
yes, and your wife is a lawyer,

352
00:17:31,630 --> 00:17:35,061
correct? She is. Was she involved in this case as

353
00:17:35,131 --> 00:17:35,481
well?

354
00:17:35,481 --> 00:17:37,338
No, no, not directly. Yes,

355
00:17:37,338 --> 00:17:40,364
not directly, but other than would be seen.

356
00:17:40,364 --> 00:17:42,496
The collateral damage now. So,

357
00:17:42,496 --> 00:17:47,654
so you're describing an incredibly stressful anxiety producing atmosphere.

358
00:17:47,654 --> 00:17:51,284
Yes, what personal practices did you use to help get

359
00:17:51,354 --> 00:17:52,192
you through?

360
00:17:52,192 --> 00:17:54,531
What is the case of 10 lifetimes?

361
00:17:54,531 --> 00:17:57,150
It's career defining? Yeah, yeah.

362
00:17:57,150 --> 00:17:59,119
Gosh, I wish I could I.

363
00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:01,949
I mean I, I want to say that I did

364
00:18:02,033 --> 00:18:04,863
something magical um or different.

365
00:18:04,863 --> 00:18:08,024
Uhm, I was. I did my best to handle it

366
00:18:08,107 --> 00:18:10,935
and in whatever way I could I was.

367
00:18:10,935 --> 00:18:14,988
I was already someone who came at this as someone

368
00:18:15,071 --> 00:18:19,207
who is health minded and healthy and and wanted to

369
00:18:19,290 --> 00:18:21,027
also talk about that.

370
00:18:21,027 --> 00:18:23,981
Yeah so I mean I would try to have a

371
00:18:24,063 --> 00:18:28,002
routine even then to get up every morning and to

372
00:18:28,084 --> 00:18:28,740
workout.

373
00:18:28,740 --> 00:18:30,005
Uh to to do yoga?

374
00:18:30,005 --> 00:18:32,985
Uh, to eat, right? But what do you do tell

375
00:18:33,056 --> 00:18:36,674
people because this is the with the rubber hits the

376
00:18:36,745 --> 00:18:37,100
road.

377
00:18:37,100 --> 00:18:40,192
What were you doing? Because the listeners?

378
00:18:40,192 --> 00:18:44,088
They don't know. This is Steve's a very healthy looking

379
00:18:44,158 --> 00:18:47,700
guy with a beautiful full head of hair with barely

380
00:18:47,771 --> 00:18:48,833
any grey in it.

381
00:18:48,833 --> 00:18:50,960
You serve. I don't color it.

382
00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,153
You survive this thing intact.

383
00:18:53,153 --> 00:18:56,408
Yeah, and so some kind of natural resilience,

384
00:18:56,408 --> 00:19:00,221
but you have practice. Is that other people can learn

385
00:19:00,293 --> 00:19:00,653
from?

386
00:19:00,653 --> 00:19:03,930
Yeah, yeah. So what it would look like is this

387
00:19:04,001 --> 00:19:07,064
there would be a a specific time to wake up

388
00:19:07,135 --> 00:19:11,267
every day that would include some level of cardio exercise

389
00:19:11,267 --> 00:19:14,641
every day so discipline they would need to be a

390
00:19:14,713 --> 00:19:16,149
level of discipline.

391
00:19:16,149 --> 00:19:18,767
I'll tell you why there needs to be,

392
00:19:18,767 --> 00:19:22,163
would need to be a level of discipline from me.

393
00:19:22,163 --> 00:19:24,710
And by the way, there needs to be a.

394
00:19:24,710 --> 00:19:27,732
Structure there needs to be disciplined.

395
00:19:27,732 --> 00:19:30,165
There need to be routine for me.

396
00:19:30,165 --> 00:19:31,861
I have a dog I needed.

397
00:19:31,861 --> 00:19:34,662
I had to walk that dog every morning.

398
00:19:34,662 --> 00:19:37,944
Uh, I would need to get those things done at

399
00:19:38,018 --> 00:19:41,002
and also prepare and study for the case.

400
00:19:41,002 --> 00:19:43,863
Me I can tell you now that I would get

401
00:19:43,938 --> 00:19:44,540
anxious.

402
00:19:44,540 --> 00:19:47,586
I would get nervous. I would not be at my

403
00:19:47,660 --> 00:19:50,855
best if I was kind of flailing and and just

404
00:19:50,930 --> 00:19:54,050
kind of catching up to the things I had to

405
00:19:54,050 --> 00:19:56,040
do. So I had to stay ahead.

406
00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:58,589
Of my own routine in order for me to be

407
00:19:58,654 --> 00:19:59,112
calmer,

408
00:19:59,112 --> 00:20:02,031
I guess you can compare it to like showing up

409
00:20:02,096 --> 00:20:03,847
to things a little earlier,

410
00:20:03,847 --> 00:20:07,017
going for a flight. Some people get there like at

411
00:20:07,081 --> 00:20:09,863
the exact moment the plane boards you know.

412
00:20:09,863 --> 00:20:12,871
I never understood that I needed to get there.

413
00:20:12,871 --> 00:20:15,617
I need to get there in my family laughs at

414
00:20:15,683 --> 00:20:15,879
me.

415
00:20:15,879 --> 00:20:18,266
I if I can get there the day before I

416
00:20:18,331 --> 00:20:21,040
would because I just want to be calm and I

417
00:20:21,105 --> 00:20:23,750
want to be prepared and I and I'm in just

418
00:20:23,750 --> 00:20:25,286
a better frame of mind.

419
00:20:25,286 --> 00:20:26,950
So I think that this case.

420
00:20:26,950 --> 00:20:28,686
Was like that as well.

421
00:20:28,686 --> 00:20:32,234
If we Fast forward to get to the trial itself,

422
00:20:32,234 --> 00:20:33,895
I can't show up late.

423
00:20:33,895 --> 00:20:36,725
I I have that I can't wake up late as

424
00:20:36,802 --> 00:20:39,556
you as I'm talking it's coming back.

425
00:20:39,556 --> 00:20:42,306
I I this I have to wake up in enough

426
00:20:42,383 --> 00:20:45,973
time to get everything done including exercise,

427
00:20:45,973 --> 00:20:50,653
including eating including whatever else I needed to do around

428
00:20:50,728 --> 00:20:53,597
in the house so I can get to court and

429
00:20:53,672 --> 00:20:54,880
not be stressed.

430
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,681
And so my mind would be slow enough for me

431
00:20:57,748 --> 00:21:00,015
to be a a capable lawyer that day,

432
00:21:00,015 --> 00:21:01,660
so I need it to do that.

433
00:21:01,660 --> 00:21:03,985
So if I if I hear you and it sounds

434
00:21:04,051 --> 00:21:07,704
like this is not something that happened as an epiphany

435
00:21:07,771 --> 00:21:09,099
with the core chest,

436
00:21:09,099 --> 00:21:11,906
in case this is become part of who you are

437
00:21:11,973 --> 00:21:13,510
as a person at a trial,

438
00:21:13,510 --> 00:21:16,077
lawyers that to my hearing that right?

439
00:21:16,077 --> 00:21:18,776
Yes, yeah, absolutely. This is just you.

440
00:21:18,776 --> 00:21:22,068
Do you learn about yourself in what makes you more

441
00:21:22,133 --> 00:21:25,030
comfortable in certain stressful situations?

442
00:21:25,030 --> 00:21:28,115
And that's me. So so being a trial lawyer creates

443
00:21:28,178 --> 00:21:31,389
feelings of anxiety and vulnerability in all of us.

444
00:21:31,389 --> 00:21:33,384
Is that fair? Oh my gosh right.

445
00:21:33,384 --> 00:21:35,005
I mean it right, it does.

446
00:21:35,005 --> 00:21:38,053
And I'm hearing you say that you have learned to

447
00:21:38,117 --> 00:21:38,371
use.

448
00:21:38,371 --> 00:21:42,097
You've recognized that you have anxiety through the job and

449
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:43,234
it won't go away.

450
00:21:43,234 --> 00:21:45,354
And you've learned the structure.

451
00:21:45,354 --> 00:21:47,954
Your life in a way that stays ahead of as

452
00:21:48,017 --> 00:21:49,095
best as possible.

453
00:21:49,095 --> 00:21:51,900
Those feelings of anxiety and vulnerability,

454
00:21:51,900 --> 00:21:53,646
and my hearing. That right?

455
00:21:53,646 --> 00:21:55,890
Yes, absolutely. And that's because.

456
00:21:55,890 --> 00:21:59,181
I realize that in order for me to be the

457
00:21:59,263 --> 00:22:02,307
best lawyer I can be to do to do what

458
00:22:02,390 --> 00:22:05,187
I know I need to do to be my best.

459
00:22:05,187 --> 00:22:07,225
Uh, it must be that way,

460
00:22:07,225 --> 00:22:08,693
or else I am, um,

461
00:22:08,693 --> 00:22:12,270
uh, you know, I am a concerned about how it

462
00:22:12,353 --> 00:22:12,852
would,

463
00:22:12,852 --> 00:22:15,869
uh, how it would play out otherwise.

464
00:22:15,869 --> 00:22:19,539
I've certainly could could do it on the fly,

465
00:22:19,539 --> 00:22:22,871
but it wouldn't be how I how I needed to

466
00:22:22,954 --> 00:22:23,454
do it.

467
00:22:23,454 --> 00:22:25,900
So Stevie just said something.

468
00:22:25,900 --> 00:22:27,406
In a minute ago, that was,

469
00:22:27,406 --> 00:22:30,283
I thought was critical. You said you needed my mind

470
00:22:30,339 --> 00:22:32,539
to be slow slow enough to be affective.

471
00:22:32,539 --> 00:22:36,380
I mean, I'm paraphrasing the last piece.

472
00:22:36,380 --> 00:22:37,778
And that's been my experience too.

473
00:22:37,778 --> 00:22:39,915
I was Bob and I grew up this public defenders

474
00:22:39,963 --> 00:22:42,385
together and I know you are a public defender going

475
00:22:42,433 --> 00:22:44,000
to come back to that in a second.

476
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,810
Besides structuring your life with discipline?

477
00:22:47,810 --> 00:22:49,745
How do you slow yourself down?

478
00:22:49,745 --> 00:22:52,180
Because I think this is if we can get.

479
00:22:52,180 --> 00:22:54,515
If I can do this for myself and I try

480
00:22:54,578 --> 00:22:57,164
this and I have to do it moment to moment

481
00:22:57,228 --> 00:22:58,174
to slow myself,

482
00:22:58,174 --> 00:23:00,422
what do you do that slows you down?

483
00:23:00,422 --> 00:23:02,857
If we yeah so let me just answer that.

484
00:23:02,857 --> 00:23:06,326
Bring back, bring bring you back to the to the

485
00:23:06,402 --> 00:23:07,910
quick Chesky Case I.

486
00:23:07,910 --> 00:23:13,634
Have vivid recollections again of spending hours and hours in

487
00:23:13,728 --> 00:23:17,950
this office where we are right now preparing.

488
00:23:17,950 --> 00:23:20,418
And while at the same time,

489
00:23:20,418 --> 00:23:24,593
so I'm I'm in the process of preparing and just

490
00:23:24,682 --> 00:23:30,456
naturally feeling extremely overwhelmed by the amount of work and

491
00:23:30,544 --> 00:23:31,788
the amount of,

492
00:23:31,788 --> 00:23:36,750
uh, effort that needs to be put into this case.

493
00:23:36,750 --> 00:23:42,080
So there's that. And then there's just the day-to-day issues.

494
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,518
Uh, the slow computer, the phone rings.

495
00:23:45,518 --> 00:23:49,214
There's noise in outside of New York City.

496
00:23:49,214 --> 00:23:54,006
Uh, my uh, you know I'm hearing some construction going

497
00:23:54,093 --> 00:23:55,661
on in the hallway.

498
00:23:55,661 --> 00:23:58,670
Got other clients in other clients.

499
00:23:58,670 --> 00:24:00,825
Clients and you have a family,

500
00:24:00,825 --> 00:24:03,745
exactly their family concerns or demands.

501
00:24:03,745 --> 00:24:07,409
And Steve, all those things are trying to speed your

502
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:08,889
mind up right there.

503
00:24:08,889 --> 00:24:11,669
Artificial things that are testing you.

504
00:24:11,669 --> 00:24:15,616
Yes, exactly exactly an. Normally it's very easy to just

505
00:24:15,687 --> 00:24:16,744
give into that.

506
00:24:16,744 --> 00:24:18,899
Speaking of me and it just be,

507
00:24:18,899 --> 00:24:21,664
you know you know what am I going to do

508
00:24:21,735 --> 00:24:22,444
I have to.

509
00:24:22,444 --> 00:24:26,170
I have to handle that and you naturally you naturally

510
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,701
try to tackle each one as it comes.

511
00:24:28,701 --> 00:24:31,839
And just with stamina. And endurance with that,

512
00:24:31,839 --> 00:24:34,541
you know and not get totally freaked out,

513
00:24:34,541 --> 00:24:36,085
but you ask about slow.

514
00:24:36,085 --> 00:24:37,694
What do I do about slow?

515
00:24:37,694 --> 00:24:41,466
I remember constantly and I think I developed this in

516
00:24:41,537 --> 00:24:43,530
that case and in that trial.

517
00:24:43,530 --> 00:24:46,158
And I thought, wow, I'm I can.

518
00:24:46,158 --> 00:24:48,956
Maybe I've changing as a person.

519
00:24:48,956 --> 00:24:52,796
I could use this in the future and I remember

520
00:24:52,881 --> 00:24:57,233
what I did I remember consciously having to say yes

521
00:24:57,318 --> 00:25:01,841
there is construction going on or there is this other

522
00:25:01,841 --> 00:25:06,165
client keeps texting me about something right now,

523
00:25:06,165 --> 00:25:10,057
but I'm just going to accept it and deal with

524
00:25:10,144 --> 00:25:10,403
it.

525
00:25:10,403 --> 00:25:13,540
And somehow I trained my mind to say.

526
00:25:13,540 --> 00:25:17,379
That I have to remain calm or else it would

527
00:25:17,469 --> 00:25:22,290
be a catastrophe like I think I actually believe that.

528
00:25:22,290 --> 00:25:25,879
And I know I'm not saying mental breakdown at it's

529
00:25:25,951 --> 00:25:27,746
not a matter of you know,

530
00:25:27,746 --> 00:25:32,486
completely losing myself, but I remember distinctly feeling that I

531
00:25:32,558 --> 00:25:33,061
had to.

532
00:25:33,061 --> 00:25:36,878
I remember distinctly feeling that I was growing as a

533
00:25:36,950 --> 00:25:37,454
person,

534
00:25:37,454 --> 00:25:39,863
be cause I was able to deal with,

535
00:25:39,863 --> 00:25:42,060
let's call it the small stuff.

536
00:25:42,060 --> 00:25:45,572
The other side of that coin is you are describing

537
00:25:45,644 --> 00:25:48,296
what I would say is true mindfulness.

538
00:25:48,296 --> 00:25:50,847
So yoga is a big part of my life and

539
00:25:50,918 --> 00:25:52,760
a part of how I slow down.

540
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,324
But that's artificial on the yoga mat.

541
00:25:55,324 --> 00:25:58,347
When your instructor talks about mindfulness,

542
00:25:58,347 --> 00:26:02,337
you're really describing for the listeners who are out there

543
00:26:02,403 --> 00:26:04,066
doing this work everyday,

544
00:26:04,066 --> 00:26:07,079
and some who were doing other work may not be

545
00:26:07,146 --> 00:26:07,682
lawyers.

546
00:26:07,682 --> 00:26:10,180
True mindfulness. Yeah, kudos to you.

547
00:26:10,180 --> 00:26:13,452
It was a conscious effort and only sound like I'm

548
00:26:13,518 --> 00:26:14,453
bragging here.

549
00:26:14,453 --> 00:26:17,399
I'm not I, I just I just remember needing to

550
00:26:17,466 --> 00:26:18,002
do this,

551
00:26:18,002 --> 00:26:20,631
but it was a conscious effort to as if I

552
00:26:20,697 --> 00:26:23,918
was looking at all of these things that needed to

553
00:26:23,984 --> 00:26:24,510
be done.

554
00:26:24,510 --> 00:26:28,995
And and doing everything I possibly could not to get

555
00:26:29,082 --> 00:26:33,998
excited about them or nervous about them or anxious about

556
00:26:34,085 --> 00:26:34,516
them.

557
00:26:34,516 --> 00:26:37,634
Becausr. I had to do it.

558
00:26:37,634 --> 00:26:40,133
I had a mission and,

559
00:26:40,133 --> 00:26:44,030
um. And I was afraid I was afraid.

560
00:26:44,030 --> 00:26:46,478
That I was afraid of the scenario.

561
00:26:46,478 --> 00:26:47,527
If I if I did,

562
00:26:47,527 --> 00:26:50,428
if I wasn't in control well and I want to

563
00:26:50,499 --> 00:26:53,613
hear you saying it is mindfulness in action.

564
00:26:53,613 --> 00:26:57,980
You acknowledged everything that was happening and I think you

565
00:26:58,051 --> 00:27:01,925
know for our listeners and Bob's talking about yoga and

566
00:27:01,996 --> 00:27:03,475
I do something again.

567
00:27:03,475 --> 00:27:07,023
I've been trained in mindfulness and this is not a

568
00:27:07,094 --> 00:27:08,442
pitch from my list.

569
00:27:08,442 --> 00:27:11,220
This is a acknowledgement of.

570
00:27:11,220 --> 00:27:14,670
You being present enough to acknowledge what is and that's

571
00:27:14,729 --> 00:27:16,573
the thing that I think lawyers.

572
00:27:16,573 --> 00:27:19,324
We all have difficult time with that we are so

573
00:27:19,384 --> 00:27:20,102
overwhelmed.

574
00:27:20,102 --> 00:27:21,749
But we think if we name it,

575
00:27:21,749 --> 00:27:24,925
it's going to kill us and it's actually the opposite.

576
00:27:24,925 --> 00:27:28,391
It's counter intuitive, but you are describing what I hear

577
00:27:28,451 --> 00:27:28,690
you.

578
00:27:28,690 --> 00:27:31,857
Describing is a process of saying it's kind of brutal

579
00:27:31,917 --> 00:27:32,395
honesty.

580
00:27:32,395 --> 00:27:34,689
You just named every stressor you had.

581
00:27:34,689 --> 00:27:36,630
Yeah, and you stayed focus yeah.

582
00:27:36,630 --> 00:27:39,101
And then you carry that over to the case.

583
00:27:39,101 --> 00:27:42,218
So there was absence so many stressors outside of our

584
00:27:42,277 --> 00:27:42,630
cases.

585
00:27:42,630 --> 00:27:45,418
But then the case itself as we bring it back

586
00:27:45,481 --> 00:27:48,459
to the discovery and we won't even I would only

587
00:27:48,523 --> 00:27:51,247
have to get into the angles of the case and

588
00:27:51,247 --> 00:27:54,564
winning the case right and figuring out a way to

589
00:27:54,633 --> 00:27:58,019
overcome with how we were going to be attacked on

590
00:27:58,088 --> 00:27:58,710
the case.

591
00:27:58,710 --> 00:28:02,309
Just within that those are stressors so OK.

592
00:28:02,309 --> 00:28:06,842
Oh my gosh, look at this material that's coming in

593
00:28:06,933 --> 00:28:07,930
now that's.

594
00:28:07,930 --> 00:28:11,303
That's evidence we really have to attack back be cause

595
00:28:11,366 --> 00:28:14,114
you know the jury could be influenced by it.

596
00:28:14,114 --> 00:28:15,784
But how about this coming?

597
00:28:15,784 --> 00:28:17,207
You know this as well,

598
00:28:17,207 --> 00:28:19,705
and I know that we have a motion that we

599
00:28:19,767 --> 00:28:22,765
have to write on this case and aren't motions in

600
00:28:22,828 --> 00:28:23,577
lemonade do.

601
00:28:23,577 --> 00:28:26,276
And by the way, what's a good juror that we

602
00:28:26,339 --> 00:28:27,720
need to pick for this?

603
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,780
So I remember also within the case feeling that I

604
00:28:30,842 --> 00:28:33,340
had to have that sense of as you call it

605
00:28:33,403 --> 00:28:34,152
mindfulness.

606
00:28:34,152 --> 00:28:36,873
But just I, maybe it's more of a control and

607
00:28:36,935 --> 00:28:38,110
an awareness of it.

608
00:28:38,110 --> 00:28:41,400
Of it, and just knowing that.

609
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,941
Like you can do it like I felt like.

610
00:28:43,941 --> 00:28:47,986
Yeah, maybe that was as close to mindfulness is I

611
00:28:48,069 --> 00:28:51,453
ever caught but I felt like you can do it

612
00:28:51,536 --> 00:28:53,930
if you try an I and I did it.

613
00:28:53,930 --> 00:28:56,627
I was able to. I was able to.

614
00:28:56,627 --> 00:29:01,139
I was able to continue along that Rd in that

615
00:29:01,242 --> 00:29:02,370
fashion so.

616
00:29:02,370 --> 00:29:04,254
You you were talking about it,

617
00:29:04,254 --> 00:29:07,172
namely identifying what all trial lawyers fear.

618
00:29:07,172 --> 00:29:09,968
You don't feel the fear of the vulnerability,

619
00:29:09,968 --> 00:29:12,340
and you began to embrace it.

620
00:29:12,340 --> 00:29:15,760
And acknowledge it and name it.

621
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,051
An recognize that there are a lot of things you

622
00:29:19,121 --> 00:29:19,891
can change,

623
00:29:19,891 --> 00:29:24,367
so beginning your career, you're a public defender in Manhattan,

624
00:29:24,367 --> 00:29:26,708
which is has to be an insane job.

625
00:29:26,708 --> 00:29:28,498
I was weaned, but Queens,

626
00:29:28,498 --> 00:29:32,398
I'm sorry. I was a closed vendor in Philadelphia with

627
00:29:32,472 --> 00:29:32,840
Jeff.

628
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,000
And certainly to this day,

629
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,957
remember how sick I would often feel on that walk

630
00:29:39,038 --> 00:29:43,480
to the courthouse within just enormous amount of files,

631
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,395
etc. Can you talk to us about those early days

632
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:47,820
and?

633
00:29:47,820 --> 00:29:51,614
What you learned over the 25 years that you could

634
00:29:51,691 --> 00:29:55,640
do this on court schefsky that perhaps you wish you

635
00:29:55,717 --> 00:29:59,666
knew back then and how that would have changed your

636
00:29:59,666 --> 00:30:02,051
existence as a defender. Yeah,

637
00:30:02,051 --> 00:30:04,744
so I mean a lot of different ways,

638
00:30:04,744 --> 00:30:06,513
I guess from from, uh,

639
00:30:06,513 --> 00:30:09,897
from a actual working on a case standpoint,

640
00:30:09,897 --> 00:30:13,955
I mean probably many, many hours of work that didn't

641
00:30:14,033 --> 00:30:15,282
need to be done,

642
00:30:15,282 --> 00:30:18,590
you know. And being focused on things that.

643
00:30:18,590 --> 00:30:21,335
Turn out not to be relevant up in the way

644
00:30:21,402 --> 00:30:23,411
in which we had to win a case.

645
00:30:23,411 --> 00:30:26,053
It tell the listeners about about that.

646
00:30:26,053 --> 00:30:28,629
Things you did that that were I guess,

647
00:30:28,629 --> 00:30:30,610
maybe to ease your own fears.

648
00:30:30,610 --> 00:30:33,641
What are things you did that you look in your

649
00:30:33,708 --> 00:30:34,045
like?

650
00:30:34,045 --> 00:30:36,797
I just didn't need to get done or I could

651
00:30:36,865 --> 00:30:38,140
spend my time back,

652
00:30:38,140 --> 00:30:40,965
yeah? So and maybe this had to be done right

653
00:30:41,029 --> 00:30:43,854
in order to grow and then not do it anymore.

654
00:30:43,854 --> 00:30:45,920
But you can go to jury selection.

655
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,674
I don't. I don't know what Philly was like in

656
00:30:48,736 --> 00:30:51,490
terms of like quad dear and how much time you

657
00:30:51,551 --> 00:30:54,367
had an an but there were judges in Queens that

658
00:30:54,367 --> 00:30:56,190
allows you to go on for days.

659
00:30:56,190 --> 00:30:58,377
You know if you want it was really.

660
00:30:58,377 --> 00:31:00,079
It was really looking back.

661
00:31:00,079 --> 00:31:03,643
It was inefficient compared to like federal court which is

662
00:31:03,705 --> 00:31:05,487
like 15 minutes Philadelphia.

663
00:31:05,487 --> 00:31:07,918
You didn't get a lot so keep going so so

664
00:31:07,978 --> 00:31:08,890
it would be so.

665
00:31:08,890 --> 00:31:11,641
I would I I felt I excelled in Vadhir in

666
00:31:11,710 --> 00:31:13,292
jury selection because,

667
00:31:13,292 --> 00:31:16,989
you know, we all have our strengths and weaknesses and

668
00:31:17,057 --> 00:31:19,522
I felt that was one of my strengths.

669
00:31:19,522 --> 00:31:21,350
I could connect to ajuran.

670
00:31:21,350 --> 00:31:22,840
I was maybe a little.

671
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,719
I had some some comedy in there so I would

672
00:31:25,787 --> 00:31:28,460
play off with him and I would enjoy it,

673
00:31:28,460 --> 00:31:31,825
you know. But I remember spending hours on like a

674
00:31:31,893 --> 00:31:33,404
whole outline on void.

675
00:31:33,404 --> 00:31:36,973
Dear, you know, a whole novel on that because that's

676
00:31:37,042 --> 00:31:38,415
how we were trained,

677
00:31:38,415 --> 00:31:41,868
you know. But here's the here's the hypotheticals.

678
00:31:41,868 --> 00:31:45,945
Don't forget the hypothetical. Here's all the notions of law

679
00:31:46,013 --> 00:31:48,527
you want to give those notions about,

680
00:31:48,527 --> 00:31:51,045
and hypotheticals in there and then.

681
00:31:51,045 --> 00:31:54,168
Here is just about you as jurors and then and

682
00:31:54,237 --> 00:31:54,515
now.

683
00:31:54,515 --> 00:31:57,345
Now I, I know that it's more of just kind

684
00:31:57,414 --> 00:31:59,346
of like notes in an outline,

685
00:31:59,346 --> 00:32:02,732
and it's a. It's a informal discussion and not as

686
00:32:02,801 --> 00:32:03,837
much as speech.

687
00:32:03,837 --> 00:32:06,627
'cause they get a better version of you.

688
00:32:06,627 --> 00:32:08,123
Is that what you say,

689
00:32:08,123 --> 00:32:10,709
right? You connect better. So I mean,

690
00:32:10,709 --> 00:32:15,200
I'll tell you, I remember writing and rewriting cross examination.

691
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,264
Outlines for preliminary hearing where I had no paperwork.

692
00:32:18,264 --> 00:32:21,147
You know, writing and rewriting and that legal pad with

693
00:32:21,199 --> 00:32:23,768
some kind of a security blanket for me back then.

694
00:32:23,768 --> 00:32:25,586
I don't know if you feel that way,

695
00:32:25,586 --> 00:32:27,939
but I would really think back and it was just

696
00:32:27,991 --> 00:32:30,396
a security blanket for me to not deal with all

697
00:32:30,448 --> 00:32:33,167
my own anxieties and this would somehow ease my fear

698
00:32:33,167 --> 00:32:34,413
side. Yes, I have that,

699
00:32:34,413 --> 00:32:36,179
and I'm not sure that's horrible.

700
00:32:36,179 --> 00:32:38,983
I mean, obviously you don't wanna do extraneous work,

701
00:32:38,983 --> 00:32:41,112
but I need yes, so you bring up a point.

702
00:32:41,112 --> 00:32:43,864
I'm not sure exactly this is what you're getting at,

703
00:32:43,864 --> 00:32:45,630
but there are some words that are.

704
00:32:45,630 --> 00:32:48,665
Amazing at thinking on their feet and reacting.

705
00:32:48,665 --> 00:32:50,309
You might be one of them.

706
00:32:50,309 --> 00:32:52,143
You know what I've seen you,

707
00:32:52,143 --> 00:32:54,705
but but it's for me that would be one of

708
00:32:54,769 --> 00:32:57,075
those stressors and make me nervous.

709
00:32:57,075 --> 00:32:59,972
And what I would need to do is anticipate the

710
00:33:00,037 --> 00:33:00,616
argument.

711
00:33:00,616 --> 00:33:02,387
So in my cross it would be.

712
00:33:02,387 --> 00:33:03,715
But if he says this,

713
00:33:03,715 --> 00:33:05,801
say that you know better people.

714
00:33:05,801 --> 00:33:07,572
He says this, you say this,

715
00:33:07,572 --> 00:33:10,700
you know. So it's like some lawyers are very very

716
00:33:10,764 --> 00:33:14,275
good at just thinking about that quickly on their feet.

717
00:33:14,275 --> 00:33:16,867
Me, I felt like I needed to have that out

718
00:33:16,931 --> 00:33:17,310
there.

719
00:33:17,310 --> 00:33:20,156
As like you said, a security blanket so that I

720
00:33:20,217 --> 00:33:22,568
was thought I was sure to be prepared.

721
00:33:22,568 --> 00:33:25,564
So that reminds me when I was a public defender.

722
00:33:25,564 --> 00:33:28,336
Bob and I shared an office together and I had

723
00:33:28,398 --> 00:33:31,355
a giant bottle of aspirin that I went through in

724
00:33:31,416 --> 00:33:33,819
one year and I had headaches and I had.

725
00:33:33,819 --> 00:33:37,240
There was so much anxiety that I wasn't even.

726
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,602
Prepared to acknowledge. Yeah it when I hear you saying

727
00:33:40,663 --> 00:33:43,291
what I hear Bob saying what I know I lived.

728
00:33:43,291 --> 00:33:46,903
Something changed about the way related to your own anxiety

729
00:33:46,964 --> 00:33:48,556
and can you speak to that?

730
00:33:48,556 --> 00:33:51,921
What change from the young public defender in Queens to

731
00:33:51,982 --> 00:33:54,123
the guy we see sitting here before?

732
00:33:54,123 --> 00:33:56,907
So I think this is for every Warriors growth.

733
00:33:56,907 --> 00:33:59,691
Whether it's a young associate at a law firm,

734
00:33:59,691 --> 00:34:01,688
whether you're in house counsel,

735
00:34:01,688 --> 00:34:05,179
whether you're working on Capitol Hill or you're a public

736
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:06,771
defender or a prosecutor,

737
00:34:06,771 --> 00:34:10,806
what we're really. Trying to get at is that you

738
00:34:10,892 --> 00:34:11,750
know that.

739
00:34:11,750 --> 00:34:16,176
Werning curbing growth and how to balance all of these?

740
00:34:16,176 --> 00:34:20,344
You know skills you're learning and fears and so can

741
00:34:20,424 --> 00:34:21,867
you speak to that.

742
00:34:21,867 --> 00:34:25,851
Yeah I guess I guess perspective helps like when I

743
00:34:25,931 --> 00:34:30,074
was a public defender I had maybe 0 perspective like

744
00:34:30,153 --> 00:34:31,747
I didn't really get.

745
00:34:31,747 --> 00:34:35,146
I didn't really it was it was you know that

746
00:34:35,225 --> 00:34:38,544
was the world that that point and I was in

747
00:34:38,623 --> 00:34:42,180
the middle of it and I wasn't really looking.

748
00:34:42,180 --> 00:34:46,422
Added from without. I was looking at it from within

749
00:34:46,505 --> 00:34:48,751
so I had no perspective of,

750
00:34:48,751 --> 00:34:51,379
uh, what the jury was thinking,

751
00:34:51,379 --> 00:34:55,844
what the judge was thinking would even my clients were

752
00:34:55,927 --> 00:34:59,317
thinking I I just I just was given a task

753
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,534
and I just would like I endless enerji just trying

754
00:35:03,534 --> 00:35:08,673
to get it done without really necessarily thinking well enough

755
00:35:08,756 --> 00:35:12,651
about strategy about about sort of parsing out,

756
00:35:12,651 --> 00:35:14,873
you know? Time and planning.

757
00:35:14,873 --> 00:35:17,449
What was that driven by anxiety?

758
00:35:17,449 --> 00:35:21,118
With this process you're describing back then,

759
00:35:21,118 --> 00:35:23,538
yeah, yeah, I I think anxiety.

760
00:35:23,538 --> 00:35:25,880
It always been there in that.

761
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,378
In that regard, I was always a,

762
00:35:28,378 --> 00:35:31,891
uh, I mean, I think my mom was sitting here,

763
00:35:31,891 --> 00:35:34,857
she said, would always a nervous kid.

764
00:35:34,857 --> 00:35:38,838
But I think that did that translated into having to

765
00:35:38,916 --> 00:35:43,210
do probably more than what was necessary to be prepared

766
00:35:43,288 --> 00:35:43,600
for.

767
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,174
A trial and um and of course I cared so

768
00:35:47,265 --> 00:35:48,365
that helped,

769
00:35:48,365 --> 00:35:50,163
but but I mean, Um,

770
00:35:50,163 --> 00:35:54,066
Yeah, that was that was born out of sort of

771
00:35:54,157 --> 00:35:58,151
an anxiety that caused me to deal with it in

772
00:35:58,242 --> 00:35:59,422
that fashion.

773
00:35:59,422 --> 00:36:03,105
Talk about the caring. How does that factor into all

774
00:36:03,176 --> 00:36:04,168
of this stuff?

775
00:36:04,168 --> 00:36:05,828
That's going on, you know,

776
00:36:05,828 --> 00:36:09,026
you're really talking about as a young lawyer then,

777
00:36:09,026 --> 00:36:12,021
but it talked about the impact that how did that

778
00:36:12,083 --> 00:36:13,393
and what did that do?

779
00:36:13,393 --> 00:36:15,700
Was that a big part or a part of your

780
00:36:15,762 --> 00:36:17,944
choice to become a public defender?

781
00:36:17,944 --> 00:36:20,404
Yeah, so I'll start with that question.

782
00:36:20,404 --> 00:36:23,094
first I don't. Well, I think I was always a

783
00:36:23,156 --> 00:36:24,032
caring person,

784
00:36:24,032 --> 00:36:27,347
a compassionate person. I like people and I wanted to

785
00:36:27,409 --> 00:36:27,722
help.

786
00:36:27,722 --> 00:36:30,305
and I like the underdog and I and I wanted

787
00:36:30,367 --> 00:36:31,720
to speak for them and.

788
00:36:31,720 --> 00:36:33,754
And I and I felt like this.

789
00:36:33,754 --> 00:36:35,206
This fit me so, um,

790
00:36:35,206 --> 00:36:39,039
but I don't think for some it's like it's everything

791
00:36:39,112 --> 00:36:40,218
it drives them.

792
00:36:40,218 --> 00:36:42,179
I don't think that was me.

793
00:36:42,179 --> 00:36:46,001
You know, I don't think I went into public defending

794
00:36:46,074 --> 00:36:48,426
because I cared about everybody,

795
00:36:48,426 --> 00:36:50,097
even though I do care.

796
00:36:50,097 --> 00:36:52,439
But so I think if I had to say I

797
00:36:52,512 --> 00:36:56,026
I developed a real concern more than more than I

798
00:36:56,099 --> 00:36:59,539
had when I first started out a real concern for

799
00:36:59,539 --> 00:37:02,590
people from my practice for my reputation.

800
00:37:02,590 --> 00:37:07,089
For the, for the, for the rule of law,

801
00:37:07,089 --> 00:37:11,067
for our system. I developed and still have a huge

802
00:37:11,148 --> 00:37:15,207
love affair with that and I don't know how lawyers

803
00:37:15,288 --> 00:37:18,535
do it without having that motivate them.

804
00:37:18,535 --> 00:37:21,495
I don't see how you can do this job if

805
00:37:21,573 --> 00:37:25,623
if you don't actually care what happens to all those

806
00:37:25,701 --> 00:37:26,246
things.

807
00:37:26,246 --> 00:37:30,612
Whatever motivates you, but there needs to be some level

808
00:37:30,690 --> 00:37:33,185
of care there an I think it was.

809
00:37:33,185 --> 00:37:37,503
I think it's actually developed since public defending,

810
00:37:37,503 --> 00:37:41,050
even though public defending by its nature is.

811
00:37:41,050 --> 00:37:43,935
You're helping out very, very,

812
00:37:43,935 --> 00:37:52,210
very disadvantaged individuals. So Steven water that.

813
00:37:52,210 --> 00:37:57,912
What are the skills and the tools that you've developed

814
00:37:58,016 --> 00:38:03,510
during your career that you value most as a traveler?

815
00:38:03,510 --> 00:38:10,460
Wow, that's a big one.

816
00:38:10,460 --> 00:38:13,820
Yes so.

817
00:38:13,820 --> 00:38:18,623
I, I think I'll go back to the you know

818
00:38:18,747 --> 00:38:23,550
the relationship I can I have with the.

819
00:38:23,550 --> 00:38:28,215
You know the characters involved in this system?

820
00:38:28,215 --> 00:38:30,595
Um, my interest in them.

821
00:38:30,595 --> 00:38:36,290
My interest in people and my desire to connect.

822
00:38:36,290 --> 00:38:41,239
And Uhm. So if I had to pick every role

823
00:38:41,366 --> 00:38:42,254
player,

824
00:38:42,254 --> 00:38:45,138
whether the judge, the prosecutor,

825
00:38:45,138 --> 00:38:48,190
the client, a jury, I I enjoy.

826
00:38:48,190 --> 00:38:50,687
Getting to know them relating to them,

827
00:38:50,687 --> 00:38:54,247
connecting with them, and I think that that spills over

828
00:38:54,312 --> 00:38:56,578
into a very effective trial lawyer.

829
00:38:56,578 --> 00:38:59,523
But you know you have to have that sincerely.

830
00:38:59,523 --> 00:39:02,457
There are a lot of people out there that play

831
00:39:02,522 --> 00:39:03,109
the part,

832
00:39:03,109 --> 00:39:05,926
and they're probably they probably do well.

833
00:39:05,926 --> 00:39:07,783
So, but you have to have it.

834
00:39:07,783 --> 00:39:09,960
Sincerely, I think to keep going,

835
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,825
can you talk a little bit more about like on

836
00:39:12,890 --> 00:39:13,802
a daily basis,

837
00:39:13,802 --> 00:39:17,451
those interactions? Court clerk, sonographers the judge,

838
00:39:17,451 --> 00:39:22,752
opposing counsel? Really talk about how that impacts your ability

839
00:39:22,834 --> 00:39:26,912
to be an advocate and how it benefits your client.

840
00:39:26,912 --> 00:39:28,942
Wow, yeah, so you know,

841
00:39:28,942 --> 00:39:30,750
uhm.

842
00:39:30,750 --> 00:39:33,296
I like it. I like doing that.

843
00:39:33,296 --> 00:39:35,927
I I enjoy people. Like I said,

844
00:39:35,927 --> 00:39:40,406
uhm, and so I welcome those moments in in developing

845
00:39:40,492 --> 00:39:41,698
relationships,

846
00:39:41,698 --> 00:39:44,838
talking to all parties at all times.

847
00:39:44,838 --> 00:39:48,888
I know there are lawyers out there kind of like

848
00:39:48,974 --> 00:39:50,439
a scorched Earth.

849
00:39:50,439 --> 00:39:54,666
You know. Which is like the way they get the

850
00:39:54,762 --> 00:39:56,780
edge is you gotta be.

851
00:39:56,780 --> 00:39:59,840
Can you say Asshole in this time?

852
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:03,913
Various. You gotta be an Asshole.

853
00:40:03,913 --> 00:40:07,764
Maybe that's how that lawyer gets it gets there edge.

854
00:40:07,764 --> 00:40:10,118
That's fine, um, but there's no.

855
00:40:10,118 --> 00:40:13,958
There's no love lost between them and all the parties

856
00:40:14,031 --> 00:40:14,683
you know.

857
00:40:14,683 --> 00:40:17,999
And maybe they just focus and they just have a

858
00:40:18,071 --> 00:40:21,387
tunnel vision on the job that they have to do.

859
00:40:21,387 --> 00:40:24,695
But for me, maybe it does tie into the comfort

860
00:40:24,767 --> 00:40:27,859
level I need in order to be common in order

861
00:40:27,931 --> 00:40:29,945
to be able to think clearly.

862
00:40:29,945 --> 00:40:32,869
And so I work better if I'm just nicer to

863
00:40:32,941 --> 00:40:33,440
people.

864
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,555
Uhm, it's funny. I have a recollection of a trial

865
00:40:36,619 --> 00:40:37,000
I did,

866
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:40,285
maybe in like 2007. I remember federal trial here in

867
00:40:40,348 --> 00:40:42,496
the Southern District of New York.

868
00:40:42,496 --> 00:40:44,370
The case involved a cot case.

869
00:40:44,370 --> 00:40:47,305
KH80. I don't know if you've ever heard of it.

870
00:40:47,305 --> 00:40:50,116
It's a drug actually that comes from Africa,

871
00:40:50,116 --> 00:40:53,489
but it's like one step above an espresso or caffeine.

872
00:40:53,489 --> 00:40:56,362
But it's a plant, but it has like a controlled

873
00:40:56,424 --> 00:40:58,610
substance in their interesting Lee.

874
00:40:58,610 --> 00:41:03,906
Anybody is interested the that controlled substance dissipates after 25

875
00:41:03,980 --> 00:41:04,428
hours,

876
00:41:04,428 --> 00:41:07,507
24 hours. So is a good motion to say wait

877
00:41:07,582 --> 00:41:08,258
a second?

878
00:41:08,258 --> 00:41:10,762
It was imported, it was the drug.

879
00:41:10,762 --> 00:41:12,972
When I got the United States,

880
00:41:12,972 --> 00:41:15,992
it wasn't. But that's besides the point.

881
00:41:15,992 --> 00:41:19,709
But the point is that I remember having that trial

882
00:41:19,783 --> 00:41:23,872
and I remember that I spent more time talking laughing.

883
00:41:23,872 --> 00:41:27,583
This is not a laughing matter but but but relating

884
00:41:27,658 --> 00:41:30,330
to the prosecutors the US attorneys.

885
00:41:30,330 --> 00:41:34,921
Especially when the jury was out then I did to

886
00:41:35,021 --> 00:41:36,817
my own Co counsel,

887
00:41:36,817 --> 00:41:40,552
and even with my client at that time.

888
00:41:40,552 --> 00:41:42,024
So, um. You know, I?

889
00:41:42,024 --> 00:41:44,820
I guess I'm not. I'm not sure what the meaning

890
00:41:44,881 --> 00:41:47,434
of that was other than to say that if some

891
00:41:47,495 --> 00:41:50,230
people need the edge to kind of hate someone,

892
00:41:50,230 --> 00:41:52,523
or to order happy an asshole to them.

893
00:41:52,523 --> 00:41:54,972
I uhm, I felt that you could be a lawyer

894
00:41:55,033 --> 00:41:56,747
and and move on both tracks.

895
00:41:56,747 --> 00:41:59,492
You know you could be a really good person to

896
00:41:59,553 --> 00:42:02,358
the parties that you're trying a case against,

897
00:42:02,358 --> 00:42:04,746
even a judge. And at the same time do a

898
00:42:04,807 --> 00:42:06,522
bang up job for your client.

899
00:42:06,522 --> 00:42:09,720
So that's that's just how I felt comfortable doing it

900
00:42:09,780 --> 00:42:11,590
for what I hear you saying is.

901
00:42:11,590 --> 00:42:19,070
Your edge is. Authenticity and a direct experience.

902
00:42:19,070 --> 00:42:20,849
To the work and your clients?

903
00:42:20,849 --> 00:42:23,042
Yeah, that's what I hear you saying.

904
00:42:23,042 --> 00:42:26,099
Yeah, and that's what gives you an edge and there's

905
00:42:26,159 --> 00:42:28,437
even some people might call that love.

906
00:42:28,437 --> 00:42:32,070
It's like it's a relationship to other human beings.

907
00:42:32,070 --> 00:42:35,013
I know and and I'm telling you I do believe

908
00:42:35,081 --> 00:42:38,367
that I like waking up everyday an going out into

909
00:42:38,435 --> 00:42:42,131
the world and saying now what's going to happen today?

910
00:42:42,131 --> 00:42:44,102
You know, like it, you know,

911
00:42:44,102 --> 00:42:47,142
I know some people do that and like and they

912
00:42:47,211 --> 00:42:48,385
say the opposite.

913
00:42:48,385 --> 00:42:51,172
Oh my God, what's going to happen today?

914
00:42:51,172 --> 00:42:53,143
You know? So it's like well,

915
00:42:53,143 --> 00:42:55,856
however you want to say it but I I want

916
00:42:55,925 --> 00:42:56,134
to,

917
00:42:56,134 --> 00:42:59,737
I really do want that and I'm not commanding everyone

918
00:42:59,805 --> 00:43:02,592
to do that and say that's the only way to

919
00:43:02,660 --> 00:43:03,340
do it but.

920
00:43:03,340 --> 00:43:07,249
I happen to have that and I think you're right.

921
00:43:07,249 --> 00:43:10,328
I think if I have that when I go into

922
00:43:10,411 --> 00:43:11,077
a trial,

923
00:43:11,077 --> 00:43:14,237
UM, I can only be better an I think it

924
00:43:14,321 --> 00:43:14,986
kind of.

925
00:43:14,986 --> 00:43:17,510
Uhm, it it it? It it it it it?

926
00:43:17,510 --> 00:43:19,139
It shows to a jury.

927
00:43:19,139 --> 00:43:21,175
If I'm feeling that way,

928
00:43:21,175 --> 00:43:25,247
which helps, um, with credibility with sincerity,

929
00:43:25,247 --> 00:43:28,804
right? So that's how I feel best to win the

930
00:43:28,887 --> 00:43:30,541
case and do my best.

931
00:43:30,541 --> 00:43:34,450
Like you said, others get their edge by saying,

932
00:43:34,450 --> 00:43:37,964
listen. I can't be friendly with the prosecutor,

933
00:43:37,964 --> 00:43:41,029
I can. I must hate that person in order to

934
00:43:41,102 --> 00:43:42,343
get the edge and,

935
00:43:42,343 --> 00:43:45,324
uh, you know, I I analogize it to like an

936
00:43:45,396 --> 00:43:48,086
athlete when I watch sporting events.

937
00:43:48,086 --> 00:43:50,799
Uhm, Uhm, I I. I feel good when I see

938
00:43:50,872 --> 00:43:51,532
you know,

939
00:43:51,532 --> 00:43:53,686
in the middle of a play both,

940
00:43:53,686 --> 00:43:56,558
you know one teammate on from one team.

941
00:43:56,558 --> 00:43:58,425
Sort of shaking the hand,

942
00:43:58,425 --> 00:44:00,291
helping the other guy up,

943
00:44:00,291 --> 00:44:02,948
hugging the other player. So anyway,

944
00:44:02,948 --> 00:44:06,250
back to me is how I'm most effective as alert.

945
00:44:06,250 --> 00:44:08,473
What were you describing right?

946
00:44:08,473 --> 00:44:10,696
There too is, in my experience,

947
00:44:10,696 --> 00:44:13,608
is a trial lawyer and being in court is a

948
00:44:13,679 --> 00:44:13,892
is.

949
00:44:13,892 --> 00:44:15,768
It is analogous to sports.

950
00:44:15,768 --> 00:44:18,947
In some like there's a flow to it that if

951
00:44:19,024 --> 00:44:21,350
your gosha present enough and.

952
00:44:21,350 --> 00:44:24,478
You're out of your own way out of your head

953
00:44:24,551 --> 00:44:28,480
into something else of flow can be present in trouble.

954
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:30,218
Yes, I mean it's funny.

955
00:44:30,218 --> 00:44:32,174
I heard a Springsteen, uh,

956
00:44:32,174 --> 00:44:35,897
give, uh, give an interview once about him on stage

957
00:44:35,970 --> 00:44:39,767
and he said the minute you start thinking about what

958
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:41,446
you're doing up there,

959
00:44:41,446 --> 00:44:43,257
it's all over. Yeah, uh,

960
00:44:43,257 --> 00:44:45,503
you know. And uh, and so yeah,

961
00:44:45,503 --> 00:44:49,004
um. And maybe that's kind of an out of body

962
00:44:49,086 --> 00:44:50,470
or a mindfulness.

963
00:44:50,470 --> 00:44:52,575
I don't know. But it's just,

964
00:44:52,575 --> 00:44:55,613
uh, yeah, it, uh, it allows me to be more

965
00:44:55,687 --> 00:44:56,058
of a,

966
00:44:56,058 --> 00:44:57,685
uh, an effective so. I,

967
00:44:57,685 --> 00:45:00,252
I'll tell you that you know over the years.

968
00:45:00,252 --> 00:45:03,363
Obviously you know listeners may know Jeff and I have

969
00:45:03,422 --> 00:45:06,943
friends forever and have this ongoing sort of daily dialogue

970
00:45:07,002 --> 00:45:10,289
for the last 25 years almost everyday about practice and

971
00:45:10,289 --> 00:45:13,470
one of the things I've definitely learned from Jeff is

972
00:45:13,529 --> 00:45:16,474
he will compare his experience playing basketball.

973
00:45:16,474 --> 00:45:19,030
We played at U Penn College and the flow of

974
00:45:19,090 --> 00:45:19,625
the game.

975
00:45:19,625 --> 00:45:22,221
He will use as an analogy to when you really

976
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:24,993
find that phone now as young public defenders.

977
00:45:24,993 --> 00:45:28,238
Believe me, we wouldn't necessarily find it but but but

978
00:45:28,297 --> 00:45:30,303
we have and you just described it,

979
00:45:30,303 --> 00:45:32,520
really sports keeps me going for sure.

980
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:36,580
Sure, um witnessing games where there it looks like a

981
00:45:36,657 --> 00:45:40,564
blowout and then somehow the other team comes back.

982
00:45:40,564 --> 00:45:44,319
How do you not get get motivated by that romantic

983
00:45:44,396 --> 00:45:48,304
idea that that it's possible and you can come back?

984
00:45:48,304 --> 00:45:50,581
Um, and it's always possible,

985
00:45:50,581 --> 00:45:53,866
so I want to. I want to transition a little

986
00:45:53,943 --> 00:45:56,922
bit to sort of how we how we would tell

987
00:45:56,998 --> 00:46:01,888
wall students because what you're doing and have done personally

988
00:46:01,888 --> 00:46:04,252
and professionally. Is, you know,

989
00:46:04,252 --> 00:46:06,756
is really a testament to your strand.

990
00:46:06,756 --> 00:46:10,431
A life well lived akarere you know that you've excelled

991
00:46:10,498 --> 00:46:11,500
at right quick.

992
00:46:11,500 --> 00:46:15,242
Before we do that, there's another little piece you your

993
00:46:15,309 --> 00:46:16,244
musician also.

994
00:46:16,244 --> 00:46:18,682
Yes, you briefly tell us about that.

995
00:46:18,682 --> 00:46:21,120
Yeah, so started playing piano young.

996
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:24,542
Shouldn't parents trying to make me take lessons?

997
00:46:24,542 --> 00:46:27,724
I took lessons for a little bit and then maybe

998
00:46:27,793 --> 00:46:31,045
like every kid didn't practice parents got mad,

999
00:46:31,045 --> 00:46:34,305
stopped lessons, but uh, like a lot of unlike a

1000
00:46:34,374 --> 00:46:36,247
lot of kids I kept playing.

1001
00:46:36,247 --> 00:46:39,454
I enjoy playing and I think that's how you get

1002
00:46:39,524 --> 00:46:40,012
better.

1003
00:46:40,012 --> 00:46:43,251
And so I kept going and then started join bands

1004
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,835
in high school and college and then try to actually

1005
00:46:46,904 --> 00:46:50,005
make a run of it after college and before law

1006
00:46:50,005 --> 00:46:51,990
school. So I took a gap year.

1007
00:46:51,990 --> 00:46:55,400
An toward around with a Seven piece one band,

1008
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:57,401
UM, which was amazing, uh,

1009
00:46:57,401 --> 00:47:00,930
and then of course, you know reality set in and

1010
00:47:01,005 --> 00:47:03,332
the law school was was calling.

1011
00:47:03,332 --> 00:47:06,223
Of course, true musicians would never,

1012
00:47:06,223 --> 00:47:10,043
ever do that. The two musicians would tell you that

1013
00:47:10,118 --> 00:47:12,890
you either have to be all in or not I

1014
00:47:12,964 --> 00:47:13,339
mean,

1015
00:47:13,339 --> 00:47:17,120
maybe you're trying to lose a musician on the side.

1016
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:20,921
I think ultimately does the does the music that factor

1017
00:47:20,991 --> 00:47:22,962
into how you control stress,

1018
00:47:22,962 --> 00:47:26,642
whether it's the court schefsky try or other ways to

1019
00:47:26,713 --> 00:47:26,996
you.

1020
00:47:26,996 --> 00:47:30,879
Oh gosh, yes. I mean listening and playing any musician

1021
00:47:30,950 --> 00:47:31,656
out there.

1022
00:47:31,656 --> 00:47:33,603
Well, any lawyer out there?

1023
00:47:33,603 --> 00:47:35,133
If you have some out,

1024
00:47:35,133 --> 00:47:37,845
let you know, take it and run with it.

1025
00:47:37,845 --> 00:47:40,210
And if you can play an instrument.

1026
00:47:40,210 --> 00:47:42,123
Away from what you're doing,

1027
00:47:42,123 --> 00:47:46,910
I'm not sure there's much better than that.

1028
00:47:46,910 --> 00:47:50,065
Let me let me take your mind and sweeping around

1029
00:47:50,131 --> 00:47:50,854
little bit,

1030
00:47:50,854 --> 00:47:54,605
we've been asking a lot of big questions and this

1031
00:47:54,681 --> 00:47:57,360
is along the lines of those if you.

1032
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:01,145
Had the ability. To have a giant billboard outside every

1033
00:48:01,213 --> 00:48:03,917
law school in America that law students,

1034
00:48:03,917 --> 00:48:08,030
professors, administrators would read every day.

1035
00:48:08,030 --> 00:48:09,830
What would it say and why?

1036
00:48:12,570 --> 00:48:16,541
And this would be geared towards those individuals geared towards

1037
00:48:16,602 --> 00:48:17,885
people in law school.

1038
00:48:17,885 --> 00:48:20,670
This is about this podcast is about.

1039
00:48:20,670 --> 00:48:23,470
Helping lawyers kill it without it killing them.

1040
00:48:23,470 --> 00:48:26,499
Knowing what you know you've lived a very rich life.

1041
00:48:26,499 --> 00:48:29,408
As Aloy, you've learned a lot of lessons along the

1042
00:48:29,466 --> 00:48:29,699
way,

1043
00:48:29,699 --> 00:48:31,471
given where you are right now,

1044
00:48:31,471 --> 00:48:33,585
you're evolving where you are today.

1045
00:48:33,585 --> 00:48:35,643
What would you have that billboard?

1046
00:48:35,643 --> 00:48:37,414
Say? Anything could be simple,

1047
00:48:37,414 --> 00:48:39,850
it could be. It could be anything.

1048
00:48:39,850 --> 00:48:42,230
You know? We've talked about it and.

1049
00:48:42,230 --> 00:48:44,952
And it may just be one word.

1050
00:48:44,952 --> 00:48:49,595
It may be care. And I say that because,

1051
00:48:49,595 --> 00:48:52,379
uh, I'm thinking you know,

1052
00:48:52,379 --> 00:48:55,780
it's easy. For us, as we sit here as trial

1053
00:48:55,861 --> 00:49:00,477
lawyers and us that we've represented people on the front

1054
00:49:00,558 --> 00:49:04,526
lines who have been who are certainly lot of them

1055
00:49:04,526 --> 00:49:07,797
broken people. Mentally ill. Drug addicted,

1056
00:49:07,797 --> 00:49:10,696
abused. The worst kind of upbringings.

1057
00:49:10,696 --> 00:49:13,719
And so it's easy to say they got to care

1058
00:49:13,794 --> 00:49:15,230
about those people,

1059
00:49:15,230 --> 00:49:18,724
right? So good people care about those people.

1060
00:49:18,724 --> 00:49:22,861
That's easy, but I'm thinking about the the majority of

1061
00:49:22,936 --> 00:49:25,042
the other lawyers out there.

1062
00:49:25,042 --> 00:49:28,758
The ones that are sitting in the office not really

1063
00:49:28,833 --> 00:49:29,130
Rep.

1064
00:49:29,130 --> 00:49:32,238
Sending guys on the front lines.

1065
00:49:32,238 --> 00:49:36,570
Uhm, not really going to court all that much.

1066
00:49:36,570 --> 00:49:40,525
Um, maybe they have bosses that are hard,

1067
00:49:40,525 --> 00:49:45,953
hard asses and mean Aniela Lot and they just tired

1068
00:49:46,062 --> 00:49:48,450
of what they're doing.

1069
00:49:48,450 --> 00:49:54,862
If they could develop some reason to care about their

1070
00:49:54,983 --> 00:49:57,523
practice about their,

1071
00:49:57,523 --> 00:50:01,702
their, their, their practice area,

1072
00:50:01,702 --> 00:50:07,910
um, about a client they have about the work product.

1073
00:50:07,910 --> 00:50:11,584
That has to motivate, it seems clear to me that

1074
00:50:11,662 --> 00:50:15,180
that has to motivate them an allow them to at

1075
00:50:15,258 --> 00:50:20,104
least have some level of happiness going through this practice

1076
00:50:20,104 --> 00:50:22,978
I mean not. Of course jobs are jobs,

1077
00:50:22,978 --> 00:50:26,618
but um, but if you can't find anything to care

1078
00:50:26,697 --> 00:50:27,172
about,

1079
00:50:27,172 --> 00:50:30,608
then. Oh man, that's a miserable existence.

1080
00:50:30,608 --> 00:50:34,593
what I love about that word is you've also talked

1081
00:50:34,674 --> 00:50:36,463
a lot about self care.

1082
00:50:36,463 --> 00:50:39,511
An that's something I think that has.

1083
00:50:39,511 --> 00:50:43,106
It partly defines who you are as a lawyer in

1084
00:50:43,188 --> 00:50:43,923
a person,

1085
00:50:43,923 --> 00:50:46,971
'cause it's your habits of self care.

1086
00:50:46,971 --> 00:50:50,691
I think a comment on this that are helping you

1087
00:50:50,772 --> 00:50:55,220
to reach your full potential and your full potential is

1088
00:50:55,300 --> 00:50:56,837
been something big.

1089
00:50:56,837 --> 00:50:59,945
So yeah, I mean. If you mean like you gotta

1090
00:51:00,017 --> 00:51:03,992
love yourself or just care about how you are perceived,

1091
00:51:03,992 --> 00:51:06,043
how you dress, how you look,

1092
00:51:06,043 --> 00:51:08,095
how you know, how you sound,

1093
00:51:08,095 --> 00:51:11,703
you take the time to really take care of yourself,

1094
00:51:11,703 --> 00:51:14,526
and I'm not sure I would love to tie it

1095
00:51:14,598 --> 00:51:14,815
in,

1096
00:51:14,815 --> 00:51:16,867
you know, and say, you know,

1097
00:51:16,867 --> 00:51:18,494
it's the costs of law.

1098
00:51:18,494 --> 00:51:22,172
It certainly helps, and I'm so happy I'm like that.

1099
00:51:22,172 --> 00:51:25,399
But, you know, I think I was like this before

1100
00:51:25,471 --> 00:51:27,407
this practice even started,

1101
00:51:27,407 --> 00:51:29,378
but it certainly. It hasn't,

1102
00:51:29,378 --> 00:51:32,239
so it hasn't stopped me from doing that,

1103
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:35,652
and I know there's some lawyers out there as you

1104
00:51:35,724 --> 00:51:36,008
say,

1105
00:51:36,008 --> 00:51:39,288
just wanna stop, kill it before it kills them.

1106
00:51:39,288 --> 00:51:40,893
I mean, let's face it,

1107
00:51:40,893 --> 00:51:44,018
you know it's easy to be beaten down and let

1108
00:51:44,089 --> 00:51:44,941
yourself go.

1109
00:51:44,941 --> 00:51:45,430
And um.

1110
00:51:47,820 --> 00:51:49,471
Yeah, I mean good? Uh,

1111
00:51:49,471 --> 00:51:53,024
well, maybe this is a different podcast on how to

1112
00:51:53,096 --> 00:51:56,141
how to on how to not become that person is

1113
00:51:56,214 --> 00:51:56,794
not yet,

1114
00:51:56,794 --> 00:51:59,594
but I don't know if I have the answer.

1115
00:51:59,594 --> 00:52:01,101
It's just how I was,

1116
00:52:01,101 --> 00:52:05,100
how I'm wired up. what I hear you saying is.

1117
00:52:05,100 --> 00:52:08,219
Have a connection. To something deeper,

1118
00:52:08,219 --> 00:52:11,962
carrying is shorthand, yet then I'm listening to you and

1119
00:52:12,029 --> 00:52:15,170
I'm watching your body line and I'm feeling it.

1120
00:52:15,170 --> 00:52:17,693
Connect to something meaningful. Yes,

1121
00:52:17,693 --> 00:52:21,212
connect whatever your where is the heart in the law,

1122
00:52:21,212 --> 00:52:25,423
whether it's the relationship with the client or if it's

1123
00:52:25,498 --> 00:52:26,250
something.

1124
00:52:26,250 --> 00:52:29,598
Connect to that and practice from that place.

1125
00:52:29,598 --> 00:52:33,311
Yes, I mean isn't that great advice for every job,

1126
00:52:33,311 --> 00:52:35,713
I mean and so why not for lot 2?

1127
00:52:35,713 --> 00:52:38,728
Uhm, but with law you have a chance I get

1128
00:52:38,801 --> 00:52:42,257
I'm Speaking of you know if this is about trial

1129
00:52:42,331 --> 00:52:42,919
lawyers,

1130
00:52:42,919 --> 00:52:46,951
it's like it's easy. There's no trial or it's listening

1131
00:52:47,025 --> 00:52:50,397
right now that really has any excuse to not to

1132
00:52:50,470 --> 00:52:53,183
not go in each day to wake up and say

1133
00:52:53,183 --> 00:52:54,566
I can be in court.

1134
00:52:54,566 --> 00:52:58,060
You know, pure wedding around that started show.

1135
00:52:58,060 --> 00:53:00,661
Um and at the same time I'm helping someone,

1136
00:53:00,661 --> 00:53:03,113
and maybe the press is going to pick me up

1137
00:53:03,172 --> 00:53:05,566
and all eyes are on me an I get respected

1138
00:53:05,624 --> 00:53:06,383
in the court.

1139
00:53:06,383 --> 00:53:08,811
It's like it has everything so so for us.

1140
00:53:08,811 --> 00:53:10,487
It's like it's a no brainer.

1141
00:53:10,487 --> 00:53:13,400
You better care about that or else maybe it's time

1142
00:53:13,458 --> 00:53:16,313
to slow down the practice you know and search for

1143
00:53:16,371 --> 00:53:17,886
something else meaningful.

1144
00:53:17,886 --> 00:53:20,692
But you know it. Maybe it's just a little harder

1145
00:53:20,751 --> 00:53:22,914
for lawyers that don't do what we do.

1146
00:53:22,914 --> 00:53:25,862
But yeah, if this. If this is geared towards people

1147
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:28,810
that go into court and have clients that they can.

1148
00:53:28,810 --> 00:53:32,164
Touch and call and text and go out to eat

1149
00:53:32,246 --> 00:53:33,718
with if they want.

1150
00:53:33,718 --> 00:53:37,126
Not all you don't want to do that with all

1151
00:53:37,207 --> 00:53:40,614
kinds but but if they do that then I would

1152
00:53:40,695 --> 00:53:43,535
imagine that that that has to help.

1153
00:53:43,535 --> 00:53:45,386
Has to help the press.

1154
00:53:45,386 --> 00:53:53,890
So Steve. When when? When your time on.

1155
00:53:53,890 --> 00:53:57,653
Earth is over and your life is being celebrated.

1156
00:53:57,653 --> 00:54:02,117
What would you want to respected colleague the stand up

1157
00:54:02,198 --> 00:54:06,094
at your memorial service and say about you as an

1158
00:54:06,175 --> 00:54:08,610
advocate and as a human being.

1159
00:54:08,610 --> 00:54:17,105
Yeah, weirdly, this is cross my mind because you go

1160
00:54:17,271 --> 00:54:19,770
to funerals or.

1161
00:54:19,770 --> 00:54:22,050
You know you hear eulogies.

1162
00:54:22,050 --> 00:54:25,338
And, uh, you think it should naturally think about,

1163
00:54:25,338 --> 00:54:28,247
hey well how someone going to describe Maine,

1164
00:54:28,247 --> 00:54:29,550
uhm?

1165
00:54:29,550 --> 00:54:34,487
So. I think what I keep coming back to is

1166
00:54:34,608 --> 00:54:35,210
that.

1167
00:54:35,210 --> 00:54:37,088
I mean, I could, you know,

1168
00:54:37,088 --> 00:54:38,410
I don't want to be.

1169
00:54:38,410 --> 00:54:41,661
And mundane, it's user friendly guy.

1170
00:54:41,661 --> 00:54:44,034
Nice guy. I don't want to.

1171
00:54:44,034 --> 00:54:47,670
I think that's I mean it's that I I think

1172
00:54:47,758 --> 00:54:51,394
I I think that's what would be said but I

1173
00:54:51,483 --> 00:54:53,788
would want more than that.

1174
00:54:53,788 --> 00:54:55,809
I would want that, uh,

1175
00:54:55,809 --> 00:55:01,000
that he was the person who walked into a courtroom.

1176
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:07,960
And respected everyone in that courtroom acknowledge them.

1177
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:12,600
Um? But at the same time.

1178
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:17,403
For his case like hell and didn't allow his personal

1179
00:55:17,495 --> 00:55:23,591
friendly relationships interfere with his need to advocate for his

1180
00:55:23,683 --> 00:55:24,330
client.

1181
00:55:24,330 --> 00:55:27,445
So I think the best trial lawyer,

1182
00:55:27,445 --> 00:55:31,752
the best trial lawyer, has to be the advocate.

1183
00:55:31,752 --> 00:55:37,434
Plus plus good person. There are plenty of amazing advocates.

1184
00:55:37,434 --> 00:55:41,722
Amazing trial lawyers. And I'm not going to name them

1185
00:55:41,803 --> 00:55:42,855
publicly now,

1186
00:55:42,855 --> 00:55:45,920
but I know for a fact that they're just they're.

1187
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:48,548
They're like emotionally empty. You know,

1188
00:55:48,548 --> 00:55:51,975
they they. They talk about themselves all the time and

1189
00:55:52,039 --> 00:55:52,864
there's like,

1190
00:55:52,864 --> 00:55:54,741
no, there's no you don't you?

1191
00:55:54,741 --> 00:55:57,957
Don't get a sense that they actually heard what you

1192
00:55:58,020 --> 00:56:01,929
just said because they're thinking about what they're going to

1193
00:56:01,992 --> 00:56:02,560
say next.

1194
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:05,188
You know, whatever the type of person is,

1195
00:56:05,188 --> 00:56:09,125
but they're amazing lawyers, and they're better lawyers than I

1196
00:56:09,189 --> 00:56:09,379
am.

1197
00:56:09,379 --> 00:56:12,110
Maybe you know, but. Um?

1198
00:56:12,110 --> 00:56:15,107
Seems to me a better life is to be a

1199
00:56:15,190 --> 00:56:18,520
really good lawyer and just someone who,

1200
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:22,268
um is at the same time an amazing human being

1201
00:56:22,351 --> 00:56:24,683
inside inside the courtroom.

1202
00:56:24,683 --> 00:56:28,755
Uhm, that to me is a full existence as a

1203
00:56:28,857 --> 00:56:30,180
trial lawyer.

1204
00:56:30,180 --> 00:56:33,281
Well, um, this has been unbelievable.

1205
00:56:33,281 --> 00:56:37,986
Steven really just the assemblage of privilege to do this

1206
00:56:38,068 --> 00:56:40,627
with you and for our listeners.

1207
00:56:40,627 --> 00:56:42,912
Truly thank you. Thank you.

1208
00:56:42,912 --> 00:56:47,391
My pleasure and thanks for having me before we wrapped

1209
00:56:47,474 --> 00:56:47,972
it up.

1210
00:56:47,972 --> 00:56:51,707
Can you tell folks where they can find you on

1211
00:56:51,790 --> 00:56:52,869
the Internet?

1212
00:56:52,869 --> 00:56:55,702
Social media. We have let him know.

1213
00:56:55,702 --> 00:56:57,474
Yeah, so we are here.

1214
00:56:57,474 --> 00:56:59,810
It's Sullivan and Brill, uh,

1215
00:56:59,810 --> 00:57:03,918
we are a criminal defense personal injury firm up.

1216
00:57:03,918 --> 00:57:07,581
We are based out of Manhattan but we you know

1217
00:57:07,662 --> 00:57:11,732
we handle cases all over New York and the country.

1218
00:57:11,732 --> 00:57:18,100
There's a website at SB criminallawyers.com spcriminallawyers.com Ann.

1219
00:57:18,100 --> 00:57:21,772
That'll get me and you'll learn about my practice and

1220
00:57:21,841 --> 00:57:23,088
you'll see really,

1221
00:57:23,088 --> 00:57:25,070
really cool picture as well,

1222
00:57:25,070 --> 00:57:27,325
which should make you feel good.

1223
00:57:27,325 --> 00:57:29,375
Thanks my brother. Thank you,

1224
00:57:29,375 --> 00:57:32,518
thanks Man. Alright thank you for joining us.

1225
00:57:32,518 --> 00:57:36,373
We hope you've enjoyed this episode of iron advocate and

1226
00:57:36,441 --> 00:57:40,365
that you take what you've learned an integrated into your

1227
00:57:40,434 --> 00:57:41,948
own personal practice.

1228
00:57:41,948 --> 00:57:45,638
As always, we leave you with a minute of mindfulness.

1229
00:57:45,638 --> 00:57:50,970
Breathe in. Breathe out and we'll see you next time.

1230
00:57:56,690 --> 00:57:57,550
Stop.

1231
00:58:43,180 --> 00:58:52,160
Z. Well.